The running joke of hardcore Remainers is to let Scotland leave the UK, join the Union and then allow the rest of UK to apply to unite with Scotland. That's the best of all worlds, everyone is unhappy except for bureaucrats who will have lifetimes employment to handle the negotiations.
Scotland starts renewed case for independence
201–210 of 745 posts
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#202One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…
> The EU has an absolutist position on border integrity What does that mean? There's Schengen, but there are also EU countries which aren't in Schengen...
Border policy as it applies to the external EU borders.
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
How often do you think independence referenda should be held?
How often do you think the entire government of a state should change? Some would argue every 4-5 years makes it impossible to have politicians with long term thinking. Why not have elections once every generation?
If Scotland votes for independence should they hold a referendum every 4-5 years on rejoining the UK?
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
About as often as a significant part of the population wants to hold them.
52%? 66%? Under 50%? What is significant here?
It would match the % required to pass the referendum. So if 65% is required, for example, and it seems like 65% might support it, then you should find out. What % is required to pass a binding referendum in the UK? What was required to determine the will of the people for Brexit?
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#205It's one thing to push for independence itself to gain full sovereignty, though with the implication they'd join the EU right away they wouldn't have it for long, but don't pretend like it's somehow going to make Scotland "better".
For a very large percentage of voters, "no Tory government ever again" automatically equates to "better". You might not agree but you can surely see the logic.
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#206With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…
I very much doubt many scottish voters will pay too much attention to the economics.
Are constitutional referendums ever really about economics? Brexit certainly wasn't
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
About as often as a significant part of the population wants to hold them.
52%? 66%? Under 50%? What is significant here?
You could do it for example like so: First you give volunteers limited time to collect a relatively small number of signatures, say about 1% of the voters in half a year, to start the process. If that is successful you transfer responsibility to the government and have the government determine whether at least 20% of the population is interested. If so, you hold the referendum.
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.
Multiple european countries have referendums multiple times per year, on topics whose effects are much harder to undo (like education plans).
I can't say that many, including myself, would agree that education plans are on the same level as independence.
But maybe I'm wrong. How often are independence referenda held in Europe?
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#209I don't believe Scotland will (or should) become independent for exactly the same reasons Northern Ireland should be reunified with Ireland: land borders.
Scotland shares a land border with England. If Scotland were part of the EU it would have to have a harder border with England. It may exclude itself from the Schengen zone but there's still the EU customs union.
Northern Ireland was the real sticking point in Brexit because of this land border with Ireland. So we ended up with the only compromise possible: Northern Ireland is effectively in the EU customs union, which is somewhat unpopular (it's complicated).
But here's the advantage Northern Ireland has: part of the Good Friday Agreement gives Northern Ireland the ability to withdraw from the Uk and reunify with Ireland [1]. This is something the UK would probably drag their heels on but a lot (myself included) think that Brexit made this inevitable. Demographics also favour this. Broadly speaking, the Republicans are Catholic and generally for reunification. Unionists are Protestants and generally favour remaining part of the UK. Population growth is higher among Republicans.
Scotland has no such mechanism. It was offered an independence referendum in 2014 and voted no. It's not likely it'll be offered another unless Scottish MPs become the balance of power in Westminster for a future government. Given the success the Conservatives had in the last election, that won't happen anytime soon.
One can argue Scotland got jebaited since 2 years later the UK voted for Brexit. Scotland overwhelmingly voted Remain. But Brexit complicates "Scexit" because England (and Wales) is no longer part of the EU customs union.
Remember that just as the UK can and did leave the EU, they can also join again. In 20 years this may be the desired option. I doubt the UK will get the concessions the EU once gave them however so maybe it'll never happen.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#Good_Friday_Agr...
Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…
I am not British or Scottish and have no skin in the game, but what is the harm in revoting if things seem to have changed? Either things didn’t change and everyone votes the same anyway, in which case it was a waste of time but reconfirms the status quo, or things actually are different and then you know and can act on it. Is there a special history or feature in UK democracy where things are only ever voted on one…
> what is the harm in revoting if things seem to have changed?
Opportunity cost. Politics and diplomacy take time and effort. Time and effort that could be spent developing plans that have utility.
For example, we have many domestic matters in Finland that need political attention, but guess where all the resources have gone lately? Dealing with covid and russians.