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No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

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Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#131

Post by xhevahir »

Gollapalli wrote: post #98
xhevahir wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're wrong about modern Switzerland, but they raise an issue that's crossed my mind occasionally: that Athenian democracy followed the emergence of the phalanx, a technology that favored the use of large, non-specialized citizen armies, and that our current military technology is the polar opposite of that.

It's the opposite. Phalanxes are the kind of thing where a break in coordination by any one man results you all getting rekt. The conflict between the Greeks and the Persians is a pretty good example of what happens when you have specialized men against a much larger force of levied up men of dubious quality. The Greeks won.

I probably shouldn't have used the word "non-specialized." I mean that in comparison with the armies of early Iron Age Greece the hoplite army of democratic Athens was relatively non-hierarchical, without such heavy dependence on a class of professional, full-time soldiers. (The author of this article compares that earlier type of combat to the sort of battle waged by indigenous New Guineans: https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/greek-warfare-... ).

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#132

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

hutzlibu wrote: post #80
dotancohen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence > internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a > sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more. > When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal > unity to reject the palestinian refugees lik…

"Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? " That is one if the ongoing big questions worldwide, isn't it? The EU solves it by paying Erdogan and co. to do most of the dirty work of keeping them away. There is no nice way, to turn someone desperate away. You can either integrate them well, or you push them out. Or you can work towards solutions, that bring prosperity to the po…

>>>>There is no nice way, to turn someone desperate away. You can either integrate them well, or you push them out.

Historically, there was a 3rd and even 4th option. Both are extremely antihuman (genocide, slavery) but they were options nonetheless.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#133

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

hutzlibu wrote: post #80
dotancohen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence > internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a > sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more. > When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal > unity to reject the palestinian refugees lik…

"Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? " That is one if the ongoing big questions worldwide, isn't it? The EU solves it by paying Erdogan and co. to do most of the dirty work of keeping them away. There is no nice way, to turn someone desperate away. You can either integrate them well, or you push them out. Or you can work towards solutions, that bring prosperity to the po…

>>>>>Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? "

Actually I will take a stab at the question.

I think Switzerland is a decent example of how to handle refugees while still remaining a free country.

In fact, Switzerland offers a glimpse of a solution: the suisse model of citizenship the municipal level.

In Switzerland, each canton makes its own rules for naturalization. Some cantons have adhoc policies, and refuse granting citizenship for almost any reason. [1].

Now, expand that thesis: - if cantons also had sovereign control of their borders (which they did, during the old confederacy) they could manage refugee crisis while retaining democratic ideals.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/01/sw...

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#134

Post by hutzlibu »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #132
hutzlibu wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? " That is one if the ongoing big questions worldwide, isn't it? The EU solves it by paying Erdogan and co. to do most of the dirty work of keeping them away. There is no nice way, to turn someone desperate away. You can either integrate them well, or you push them out. Or you can work towards solutions, that bring prosperity to the po…

>>>>There is no nice way, to turn someone desperate away. You can either integrate them well, or you push them out. Historically, there was a 3rd and even 4th option. Both are extremely antihuman (genocide, slavery) but they were options nonetheless.

And of course there is the 5th, often applied solution of putting them in enclosed temporary camps, that turn permanent, if the conflict never gets solved.

And personally I like the swiss approach, too.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#135

Post by hutzlibu »

bergenty wrote: post #127
hutzlibu wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have their weapons at home, but not anymore the ammunition.

What is the point of keeping the weapons then? Is it easy to buy your own ammunition?

The point is, not everyone can start a amok run at any time, but in case of mobilisation, it makes logistics much easier.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#136

Post by yonaguska »

watwut wrote: post #125
yonaguska wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you look at the role that the West played in the Arab spring movement in general, specifically Intel agencies destabilizing Libya, and supporting extremist movements, the rapid pull out of Iraq, when it was known that extremist factions were waiting for this to happen...the West had it's hands all over this. The West was involved from the beginning, just not in obvious ways.

Every time there are protests against a dictator, it is west doing. There is no way those dictatorships would had people protesting them when opportunity arises. It is all CIA opsec, whether Arab spring or Ukraine or anything. /s Nah.

Concerning Ukraine, the CIA literally funded the Banderas movement for years, even going so far as to protect people from the Nuremberg trials to ensure that Ukraine would have a resistance movement under the USSR. This is not classified information anymore. And until recently, you could listen to a phone call with Secretary Nuland as she discussed who should be placed into power in the anti-Lukaschenko movement. She also discusses how the EuroMaidan protests would need at least 100 dead in order to justify American support and intervention.

Gaddafi, we enforced no fly zones and called on NATO to help the the Muslim brotherhood oust Gaddafi. In WikiLeaks cables, Clinton bragged about taking out Gaddafi, as well as in public, and Blumenthal even discussed investing in an arms company in order to profit from the conflict.

In Syria, we watched no fly zones being established that protected ISIS, while ISIS was condemned publicly by the same politicians that protected them. Then the CIA sent arms to "moderate rebels" that were simply rebranded IS groups. Some of those groups, after receiving arms, went public with their allegiance to IS.

Don't forget Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, another group that the US had a heavy hand in creating in order to creating.

And we've done stuff like this on every single continent. Patrice Lumumba got too friendly with the Russians and communism. Haven't even gotten to South America.

And I'm someone that would consider themselves very anti communist, but I can acknowledge that the US has been involved in some incredibly destructive behind the scenes foreign policy. This stuff isn't really disputed.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#137

Post by occamrazor »

kkfx wrote: post #12
rob74 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or it could be a recipe for civil war if those trained and armed people split into different factions. I don't see that happening in Switzerland, but that's probably one of the reasons why this model hasn't caught on a lot.

Swiss is actually deeply split: German-speaking think they are the best, they have to rule, their Calvinist vision is the best etc, French-speaking populations they are the best, their social and democratic model is far superior to the raw and sore German-speaking Calvinist one, Italian-speaking populations think they are the best, a bridge between French and German groups, French-speaking ones are just hippie with t…

Nitpick: Calvin was mostly active in Geneva, in the French speaking part. The most important exponent of the Reformation in Zurich was Zwingli. And the (German speaking) cantons in Central Switzerland that “founded” Switzerland are to this day mostly Catholic.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#138

Post by merely-unlikely »

bell-cot wrote: post #100
DoughnutHole wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not Swiss, but a quick peruse of Wikipedia says that this is no longer the case except for ~ 2,000 specialist militia members at any given time - the Swiss keep their militia-issued firearms in the home but ammunition is kept in government armouries. You can purchase your militia firearm after your service has ended but it must be converted to semi-automatic and you have to apply for a permit - a semi-automatic f…

That (having ammunition at home, or not, for various parts of their forces) sounds like a detail which would be relatively easy to dial up or down, depending on the Swiss Dept. of Defense's current assessment of the threat level...

Up until recently (here's an article from 2014 [1]), the Swiss still had explosives near major bridges just in case of attack. They seem to have taken home defense rather seriously in more than one way.

"Until now, hundreds of key roads and bridges across Switzerland have held stores of explosives for use in the event of invasion. The policy was developed during the Cold War, because of fears of an attack by Warsaw Pact countries, eight communist states of Central and Eastern Europe." [1]https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/cold-war-defence_army-to-find-a...

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#139

Post by dotancohen »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #133
hutzlibu wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? " That is one if the ongoing big questions worldwide, isn't it? The EU solves it by paying Erdogan and co. to do most of the dirty work of keeping them away. There is no nice way, to turn someone desperate away. You can either integrate them well, or you push them out. Or you can work towards solutions, that bring prosperity to the po…

>>>>>Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? " Actually I will take a stab at the question. I think Switzerland is a decent example of how to handle refugees while still remaining a free country. In fact, Switzerland offers a glimpse of a solution: the suisse model of citizenship the municipal level. In Switzerland, each canton makes its own rules for naturalization. Some ca…

To what quantity of refugees does that scale?

Being able to turn away _all_ refugees is a luxury that some non-Mediterranean European countries have because there is a buffer state before the refuge is actually on your land. But when the refugees are flooding over your border at the rate of 2 refugees for every 1 of your citizens, how effective such a policy in practice?

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#140

Post by watwut »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #130
watwut wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China itself is colonial power - to these days. > You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers. China land was literally occupied by Japanies who fought on the German side and joined the allies. China fought in that war and lost quite a lot of people in that war. Ad Turkey: It is one…

> Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression. This is pot / kettle black. It's not like none of this happens over here. If you open a typical British or US history textbook, it omits or glances over most of the atrocious and dark parts of it's history. As a result most population is unaware of their scale, or sometimes unaware of them at all. That's how…

Sure and that is bad too and perfectly fine to point out in that context.

That does not mean it is suddenly honorable when Turkey do it right now. Or that we have to accept similar behavior from everyone else without pointing it out.

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