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No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

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Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#71

Post by smcl »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #55
smcl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that things can get downvoted and flagged according to personal tastes (mention a figure like Marx or Tito without explicitly condemning them and watch the downvotes roll in for an idea of what the prevailing personal tastes here are) but my point is that overall politics is not at all off the table here, even when it's not totally civil.

Which is a shame because there is no real understanding of Marx as an economist as a scholar. It's jusy mob mentality of Marz=Communism=(evil or usefull idiot) Very few people know that Marx himself was puzzled as to why his book became so popular in Russia, and how little his writing has in common with ideology thay followed

Yep it's a bit silly and it comes from some a place of ignorance. To be honest I'm not in danger of being booted off the site any time soon, so a couple of downvotes here and there aren't going to cause too much harm :)

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#72

Post by watwut »

nspattak wrote: post #51
hrgiger wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heya Turkish guy here, some points you mention I agree (our secularism, administration), but I found your lobbying approach for cheering for war and weapons quite disturbing, I love Greek people, we have many commons and differences, when I share my projects or work publicly I always think there is many otherside think like me, peaceful minds concentrated on development rather than destruction. Elections are due we w…

Elections are coming in Greece as well. Politicians on either side of the aegean have failed their people misserably and are apparently turning to nationalism/hatred for political gain. I wish this is understood by both countries (yet I do not expect it...)

It does not seem like symmetrical both sides situation to me to be honest.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#73

Post by watwut »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #52
planetis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no negotiating to be done over one's sovereign rights. Once again going too far over any logic can explain but let me be clear about it. Every country has the right to defend its territory, that's article 2 paragraph 4 of the UN charter. The Paris Peace treaty does not concern Turkey, as Turkey did not sign it. Turkey remained neutral in WW2, declaring war against Germany in late February 1945, hence the tit…

> "hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism." Imagine you are in charge of a struggling nation, somewhat behind technologically, close to Germany and Italy, during the most destructive war in history. In that situation, would you be eager to declare war on the axis powers, and condemn your people to suffering? Even US wasn't keen to get involved untill war came to them - and they had technol…

China itself is colonial power - to these days.

> You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers.

China land was literally occupied by Japanies who fought on the German side and joined the allies. China fought in that war and lost quite a lot of people in that war.

Ad Turkey: It is one thing to stay aside of genocide far away, it is another thing to demand credit for fighting genocide when it is clear who won.

> The point is not to agree or disagree with this worldview, but you have to realise that world events don't look the same from dofferent corners.

Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#74

Post by hutzlibu »

bluedino wrote: post #57
ihaveajob wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During military service, you're typically not home with service weapons. You're stationed wherever you're receiving training, and that's where weapons remain.

The army in Switzerland does exactly this. They can mobilize faster with the guns and ammo at home.

They have their weapons at home, but not anymore the ammunition.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#75

Post by BbzzbB »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #52
planetis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no negotiating to be done over one's sovereign rights. Once again going too far over any logic can explain but let me be clear about it. Every country has the right to defend its territory, that's article 2 paragraph 4 of the UN charter. The Paris Peace treaty does not concern Turkey, as Turkey did not sign it. Turkey remained neutral in WW2, declaring war against Germany in late February 1945, hence the tit…

> "hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism." Imagine you are in charge of a struggling nation, somewhat behind technologically, close to Germany and Italy, during the most destructive war in history. In that situation, would you be eager to declare war on the axis powers, and condemn your people to suffering? Even US wasn't keen to get involved untill war came to them - and they had technol…

>Europe only cared about Europe

Not every part of Europe, even that is selective. Atrocities happened in ex-Yugoslavia right under it's nose and inaction, less than 30 years ago.

Who knows if anything would've been done for Ukraine either if it wasn't for their president and people's heroic defense in the first days.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#76

Post by goda90 »

blfr wrote: post #26

The almost unreasonable effectiveness of citizen-soldier over the ages is often underappreciated. It takes life-long dedication and a whole martial culture for professionals to keep the upper hand (medieval Europe, Sparta)

Is it citizen-soldier vs professional, or is it a case of defense vs attack? Given an equivalent foe, how would they square up in defending their homelands?

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#77

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

dotancohen wrote: post #40
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very easy: One is founded on libertarian ideals. The other one is founded on state-mandated pluricultural sectarianism. In switzerland, plurality is represented via multiple presidents and they can represent any canton. In lebanon, plurality is state-mandated: must have a president that is of X religion. A prime minister of Y religion. This is "representative". The swiss has very strong traditions on union out of nec…

> They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence > internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a > sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more. > When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal > unity to reject the palestinian refugees lik…

>>>>I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more

I don't know where this practice comes from or how long has it been around.

I do know however the public works bidding is a cartel, and there is so much corruption at all levels, from deputies to private enterprise, that it would make Brazil's petrobras corruption scandal (lava jato) look minor in comparison.

>>>>Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods?

Im not sure. Displaced populations had to go live somewhere. The palestinian issue is rare because they were forced to leave, which is atypical for "total war" conflict.

In total war conflicts, the result is winner takes land with resources, and loser state is (a) integrated into larger empire, with either assimilation, or massive civilian casualties, or (b) else loser state is left with minor pop and land.

With Palestine, there was no leftover "loser" state, there were no resources changing hands, and no civilian wipeout.

I dont know of any democratic country succesfully managing refugees at that scale. Total war is not rare historically, what is rare is democratic states existing at the time total war was still prevalent.

The question is interesting. Id like to give it more thought.

That being said, history tends to put everyone in their place. Jordan may still implode due to royal malfeasance, but lebanon already did.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#78

Post by DoughnutHole »

bluedino wrote: post #57
ihaveajob wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During military service, you're typically not home with service weapons. You're stationed wherever you're receiving training, and that's where weapons remain.

The army in Switzerland does exactly this. They can mobilize faster with the guns and ammo at home.

I'm not Swiss, but a quick peruse of Wikipedia says that this is no longer the case except for ~ 2,000 specialist militia members at any given time - the Swiss keep their militia-issued firearms in the home but ammunition is kept in government armouries.

You can purchase your militia firearm after your service has ended but it must be converted to semi-automatic and you have to apply for a permit - a semi-automatic firearm would fall under the "may-issue" permits which requires justification for why you need said firearm, and it seems that ammunition falls under the same rules. It'd be great if a Swiss person could chime in since I don't know anything more than what I've gleaned from this article.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzer...

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#79

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

baybal2 wrote: post #54
baud147258 wrote: post #2

I'm disappointed the article didn't have a link towards a copy of the book; at this point I think most copyright have expired, no? Here's one I found: http://demonax.info/doku.php?id=text:how_to_survive_under_si...

Quoted post unavailable.

This is an excellent post.

Ties historical loose ends very nicely.

This is the same realization of COVID flight and shipping route shutdowns, to the old s "castle gates" shutting close.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#80

Post by hutzlibu »

dotancohen wrote: post #40
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very easy: One is founded on libertarian ideals. The other one is founded on state-mandated pluricultural sectarianism. In switzerland, plurality is represented via multiple presidents and they can represent any canton. In lebanon, plurality is state-mandated: must have a president that is of X religion. A prime minister of Y religion. This is "representative". The swiss has very strong traditions on union out of nec…

> They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence > internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a > sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more. > When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal > unity to reject the palestinian refugees lik…

"Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? "

That is one if the ongoing big questions worldwide, isn't it?

The EU solves it by paying Erdogan and co. to do most of the dirty work of keeping them away.

There is no nice way, to turn someone desperate away. You can either integrate them well, or you push them out.

Or you can work towards solutions, that bring prosperity to the poor, exploited areas of the world. Ending wars would be a good start.

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