Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

atlasobscura.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 130 posts

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#51

Post by [deleted] »

mrcheesebreeze wrote: post #17
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #13

IMO we should not look at Genghis Kahn's Empire fondly. After listening to Hardcore History's Wrath of the Khans, I think they have been the most evil group humanity has produced so far. Time seems to heal all wounds but Genghis Khan sure seemed to have made a lot of wounds.

I don't know if we can call them the most evil. There are plenty of contenders, even if the death rates don't match up. If we go purely by deathrates then we should pick communist china or the soviet union. If we go by barbarity the mongol empire, the timurids, and the japanese empire (talking the one from ww2) are all good contenders. Imperial japan was so bad that the nazi ambassador to china in nanking did his bes…

[deleted]

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#52

Post by FredPret »

redsid wrote: post #48
mrcheesebreeze wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if we can call them the most evil. There are plenty of contenders, even if the death rates don't match up. If we go purely by deathrates then we should pick communist china or the soviet union. If we go by barbarity the mongol empire, the timurids, and the japanese empire (talking the one from ww2) are all good contenders. Imperial japan was so bad that the nazi ambassador to china in nanking did his bes…

In 21st century, is it the US on the lead?

You've got to be kidding

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#53

Post by marginalia_nu »

KoftaBob wrote: post #35
mrcheesebreeze wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if we can call them the most evil. There are plenty of contenders, even if the death rates don't match up. If we go purely by deathrates then we should pick communist china or the soviet union. If we go by barbarity the mongol empire, the timurids, and the japanese empire (talking the one from ww2) are all good contenders. Imperial japan was so bad that the nazi ambassador to china in nanking did his bes…

> If we go by barbarity the mongol empire, the timurids, and the japanese empire (talking the one from ww2) are all good contenders. It's interesting that 2/3 are central asian steppe empires/civilizations. What is it with that area and producing psychopathic tribes, not to mention being the origin point of several plagues.

Adding to the list of steppe empires, not an Asian one though, the Commanche Indians are way up there in terms of barbarism as well. Not just against the encroaching westerners, but other tribes as well. They really did not mess around with the sadistic torture of their war prisoners. Proper nightmare fuel.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#54

Post by krapp »

KoftaBob wrote: post #35
mrcheesebreeze wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if we can call them the most evil. There are plenty of contenders, even if the death rates don't match up. If we go purely by deathrates then we should pick communist china or the soviet union. If we go by barbarity the mongol empire, the timurids, and the japanese empire (talking the one from ww2) are all good contenders. Imperial japan was so bad that the nazi ambassador to china in nanking did his bes…

> If we go by barbarity the mongol empire, the timurids, and the japanese empire (talking the one from ww2) are all good contenders. It's interesting that 2/3 are central asian steppe empires/civilizations. What is it with that area and producing psychopathic tribes, not to mention being the origin point of several plagues.

>It's interesting that 2/3 are central asian steppe empires/civilizations.

Google tells me the Timurids were Mongol descendents of Genghis Khan, so not really. 100% of that relevant data set is one extended family.

>What is it with that area and producing psychopathic tribes, not to mention being the origin point of several plagues.

The Mongols were little more "psychopathic" than many societies at the time, only distinctive in terms of their relative success, not their cruelty. Alexander the Great tortured and slaughtered people by the thousands, and Westerners don't consider him a barbarian or psychopath so much as a tactical genius and founder of the civilized world.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#55

Post by Glyptodon »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #13

IMO we should not look at Genghis Kahn's Empire fondly. After listening to Hardcore History's Wrath of the Khans, I think they have been the most evil group humanity has produced so far. Time seems to heal all wounds but Genghis Khan sure seemed to have made a lot of wounds.

It's hard for me to see them as "more evil" than many other pre-modern groups. It's such an arbitrary framing.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#56

Post by akomtu »

I see they are trying to push a narrative here, but they picked a weak example. Wu Zetian started in a harem of some Chinese emperor, but climbed to the top, captured the throne and ruled for 15 years officially (and who knows how many years before that unofficially). She wasn't shy of killing her own newborn for a timely political move, and obviously wasn't constrained by morals in her climbing after that.

And Genghis Khan was just a powerful savage who wiped out entire chinese cities who dared to defend themselves. His take on chinese civilization was that it was occupying land that could be used to grow grass for his horses.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#57

Post by oldsecondhand »

jltsiren wrote: post #34
samatman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raw death toll and percentage of total world population slaughtered seem like the two most objective measures. The Horde win the dubious blue ribbon for the latter.

Mongol conquests were roughly comparable to the European conquest of the Americas. Both toppled great empires and may have killed ~10% of world population in a few generations. And both were more noteworthy due to their large-scale success than their brutality. While both waves of conquest were brutal even by contemporary standards, they were not extraordinary brutal. Being an absolute monster is a part of the job de…

The Europeans didn't topple any empire in the Americas. They collapsed by themselves due to the sickness brought over by the Europeans before they made contact. It would have been logistically impossible to topple an empire overseas.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#58

Post by krapp »

mrcheesebreeze wrote: post #17
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #13

IMO we should not look at Genghis Kahn's Empire fondly. After listening to Hardcore History's Wrath of the Khans, I think they have been the most evil group humanity has produced so far. Time seems to heal all wounds but Genghis Khan sure seemed to have made a lot of wounds.

I don't know if we can call them the most evil. There are plenty of contenders, even if the death rates don't match up. If we go purely by deathrates then we should pick communist china or the soviet union. If we go by barbarity the mongol empire, the timurids, and the japanese empire (talking the one from ww2) are all good contenders. Imperial japan was so bad that the nazi ambassador to china in nanking did his bes…

>Imperial japan is what I consider the worst by barbarity.

On the other hand, the United States committed genocide against an entire continent, was the only nation to drop atomic bombs in warfare (and did so against civilians) continued Nazi and Japanese human experimentation and bioweapons research going under MKULTRA and other secret programs (as well as recruited Nazi scientists for their space program,) raped, tortured and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Vietnam and Korea (and used Agent Orange), and went on a 20 year temper tantrum of violence and war crimes across Iraq for no discernable reason other than Afghanistan not being enough to satisfy their post 9/11 bloodlust.

Not to excuse Imperial Japan or the Nazis or anyone else but ranking evil against evil is always a matter of perspective, and it's often less about which evil is greater than which evils you're willing to excuse and which not. A similar list of sins could be made about the Soviet Union, China, Britain, or just about any nation or empire in history. Humans are bastards everywhere.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#59

Post by AussieWog93 »

thevardanian wrote: post #24
mrcheesebreeze wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is a fair point, but its a far cry from the claim of running the empire. The wives of many leaders tend to be important politically and have a hand in the nation's affairs, but its a large leap to claim that means they ran it. She was important absolutely, but the article was just using too much hyperbole. also the army stat was complete bs, we know they were not in need of resorting to female soldiers due to t…

Household economics were often controlled by women, as well as structuring/securing social alliances or solidify social status. So it isn't hyperbole, so much as this aspect is entirely lost with more "modern" ideas about gender roles, rather the lack thereof. In older societies it was common to view women as playing a central role in bringing great ruin or great fortune to men, and by extension "their" empires, for…

>In older societies it was common to view women as playing a central role in bringing great ruin or great fortune to men, and by extension "their" empires, for this very reason.

Honestly, even if we don't talk about it, it still is this way. If you want to achieve success, the single most important decision you make is who you marry.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#60

Post by AussieWog93 »

evv555 wrote: post #19
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #13

IMO we should not look at Genghis Kahn's Empire fondly. After listening to Hardcore History's Wrath of the Khans, I think they have been the most evil group humanity has produced so far. Time seems to heal all wounds but Genghis Khan sure seemed to have made a lot of wounds.

Looking forward to the feel-good girl power articles about Nazi Germany.

"How Leni Riefenstahl Triumphed Over The Patriarchy"
Post reply on HN