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It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

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Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#681

Post by qball »

callamdelaney wrote: post #671
qball wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling Most people who talk about this tend to have no idea what laws already cover gambling. I think that, in this case, loot boxes should be treated like slot machines as far as minimum payout goes; in Nevada (for example) this is minimum 75% by law- meaning that the house must ultimately return 75% of the value it takes in as winnings to its gamblers. As these s…

There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. Value is based on a limit in supply, not only demand. The massive possible amount of supply puts the value at $0. It's worse than gambling.

>There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes.

But that's false, on its face in fact- there was development and artist time involved in every step of the process, and that time has a value (and an auditable one, at that).

So now that we know what the value is, taking into account that the house can only pay out in those assets, we can in effect determine a maximum profit per asset (as far as the house-player transaction is concerned)- casinos close their doors when the house is no longer able to pay out, and it's no different here.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#682

Post by qball »

fatbird wrote: post #678
qball wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling Most people who talk about this tend to have no idea what laws already cover gambling. I think that, in this case, loot boxes should be treated like slot machines as far as minimum payout goes; in Nevada (for example) this is minimum 75% by law- meaning that the house must ultimately return 75% of the value it takes in as winnings to its gamblers. As these s…

Kids aren't allowed to play real world slot machines either, are they?

The last time I went to Dave & Busters, they didn't seem to have an entrance policy.

People don't seem to have a problem with this even though a minority of their games are ultimately slot machines (the simplest of which is the "time the light" game, but the coin stackers count as this as well given that they're literally right out of real casinos).

Interestingly, the fact that D&B lets you combine winnings with cash to simply buy prizes outright arguably puts them under the 'gambling' line from a legal standpoint (it works if the tokens have "no value", which is how arcades generally do it for this specific reason- combining points with your leftover cash makes this fig leaf vanish), but the fact that they let you do that in the first place is also a pro-consumer move.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#684

Post by Dunban4 »

maccard wrote: post #429
Dunban4 wrote: post #386

Instead of government, an industry standard: total microtransaction purchases cannot exceed the full market price of the game. If the purchase limit is reached, every microtransaction item is unlocked unconditionally. - DLCs are not microtransactions but they must add either new features or narratives.

What's the full market price of a f2p game? Why is it ok for narrative content to be considered a DLC but cosmetic content to be considered microtransactions?

> Many non-F2P MMOs have a subscription model instead. The market price quota would be based on the market price of subscriptions > Assets such as new models and textures are the simplest skeletons of a game. A new feature is comparable to a side game and a narrative could be an entire game on its own ie: CYOA

To clarify, the 2 criterions should be 'best practices' and not hard enforceable rules. However, games that don't adhere to the best practice should have the stigma associated with the ratings M or AO. An adult should be capable of judging the poor value of microtransactions and have the choice to suffer the consequences of consensual decisions at their own expense.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#685

Post by bentcorner »

elromulous wrote: post #598
lekevicius wrote: post #199

It's even more frustrating, because the game is good . I really enjoyed playing the first 30 levels or so. Good story, good controls, very satisfying gameplay. If I could pay $60 and just have a "classic" Diablo on my phone, I might. But I won't spend a cent on consumable in-app purchases. It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds…

> It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds and thousands of dollars". Fwiw, I would be onboard with some kind of model where one pays a small monthly (or additional fee) for continued updates. For instance, I play a few multiplayer games (overwatch, hunt showdown) and I'd be ok paying $1 a month or so to support continued updates…

I play Overwatch too and I'm kind of worried about what's going to happen when Overwatch 2 releases. OW 1's monetization policy is extremely generous, at this point in the game's lifecycle I have about 1000 hrs of playtime and have nearly every single cosmetic, and the only money I've sent Blizzard's way is the CD key and the pink charity skin.

I worry that the pendulum will swing too far in the other direction and we'll see P2W elements, particularly in the PvE mode that eventually releases.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#686

Post by iepathos »

qball wrote: post #681
callamdelaney wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. Value is based on a limit in supply, not only demand. The massive possible amount of supply puts the value at $0. It's worse than gambling.

>There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. But that's false, on its face in fact- there was development and artist time involved in every step of the process, and that time has a value (and an auditable one, at that). So now that we know what the value is, taking into account that the house can only pay out in those assets, we can in effect determine a maximum prof…

This is not accurate. Time and resources put into making a product does not guarantee or give it any inherent value. Value of products can absolutely be 0 even if millions are dropped into its creation if there is no demand or simply infinite supply. I don't think there is infinite supply here, just pointing out this argument about value based on development cost is not accurate.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#687

Post by Fnoord »

Aerroon wrote: post #405
DandyDev wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Going to end in disaster" -> that's hyperbole The fact that the Belgian and Dutch governments label these predatory microtransaction schemes as gambling, shows that they understand the subject matter perfectly fine. Yes, you and I can sensibly choose not to play those games or spend money on them. But lots of people can't. That's why laws regulating gambling exist. Nobody is saying that you can't play these games. T…

> Nobody is saying that you can't play these games. The Dutch and Belgian government quite literally are saying that you can't though. Of course, in practice it just means Dutch and Belgian players will pretend they're from another European country via VPN. > Those gaming companies just have to accept that their products are a form of gambling and will be regulated and taxed as such. I'm not sure if you're saying thi…

> The Dutch and Belgian government quite literally are saying that you can't though. Of course, in practice it just means Dutch and Belgian players will pretend they're from another European country via VPN.

I am a Dutch player who played D1, D2, D3. I won't play Diablo Immortal. First of all the condescending comment about phones as well as the launch of D3 which made whatever this game is quite sour. Then they made it a reskin by NetEase; it only uses Blizzard IP it isn't developed by Blizzard. Then they made it P2W, as this item proves.

> I'm not sure if you're saying this in bad faith, are ignorant of gambling laws or truly believe this. If you were to regulate video games with gambling laws then that video game ceases to exist.

Of course they can work around it by not having P2W. Its that simple, really. How about make a damn good game and sell it?

I can only hope more countries start regulating crap like this, as should happen with ML/AI ('algorithms') as well.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#688

Post by lcw »

nickjj wrote: post #674
lcw wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I feel you. I don't think I was whataboutism-ing. The parent comment said PoE is fine because it's just cosmetics in game that you can buy. I guess I should have said you could spend thousands of dollars on PoE on cosmetics, but I'm just stating that one isn't better than the other. The main topic to me is that people are saying they don't like p2w games, and it feels like a weak argument if you say you don't li…

> I just get this vibe that people don't think through their stance these days. They just want what they want, and use ethics to support their point when they don't really have a consistent sense of morality to speak of. I thought it through and my stance is I do think there's a very big difference between p2w and cosmetic only cash shops from a moral stand point in the context of Diablo Immortal and PoE. I never fel…

These are all valid reasons to dislike p2w games. I do think that some of the p2w aspects are more complex/confusing than in previous games, but for instance losing paid for content because of time constraints isn't a novel idea. That's literally what a battle pass is. PoE has Vault Pass. You have to log in and play to receive those awards. You pay for the opportunity to get them and there is a time constraint if you don't play enough. Some games more than others make the battle pass easier to achieve with dailies.

That said you are addressing that you "feel" like it's not as bad. However, I would argue that PoE wouldn't be still running so successfully without whales that may or may not be victims. You are, like many sane human beings, reaping the benefits of a well funded development team by whales. Does that make it ethically right because you don't "feel" it or see it as egregiously? Should a skin ever cost $50?

Like most things you feel it when it impacts your experience, which is very clear if you aren't a spender in a p2w game. If it didn't impact your experience you don't care hence why you think one is worse than the other. It's about how you feel, and that is the problem today. It's hard to solve a problem when people are inconsistent about where they stand on an issue. Do they care about victims and these MTX tactics or do they just not like p2w games. Personally, I don't think p2w games should be illegal much like I don't think gambling should be illegal, but I do think there needs to be more regulation about predatory MTX especially in regard to children across the board.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#689

Post by rashkov »

ksidudwbw wrote: post #643
lekevicius wrote: post #199

It's even more frustrating, because the game is good . I really enjoyed playing the first 30 levels or so. Good story, good controls, very satisfying gameplay. If I could pay $60 and just have a "classic" Diablo on my phone, I might. But I won't spend a cent on consumable in-app purchases. It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds…

VR is so fun if you want basic graphics and fun gameplay

Do you have some recommendations?

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#690

Post by kabdib »

anonydsfsfs wrote: post #658
PradeetPatel wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be mindful of the biggest difference between Elden Ring and Diablo Immortal - the latter has a constant revenue stream via its in game microtrasaction capability. Whereas the former, despite being a good game, may not provide the revenue model desired by its stakeholders.

Elden Ring isn't going to be a standalone game. The publisher (Bandai Namco) says it's the start of a franchise, which fans are almost certain to lap up for a long time to come. Had Elden Ring included microtransactions or other questionable features, it's likely fans would be far less enthusiastic about future installments, which means revenue from the franchise would dry up faster.

Someone made a video that imagined changes a company like EA or Blizzard might make to Elden Ring, charging for extra arrows, fees for questlines, microtransactions for boss assists, and so forth. It made me feel sick. I could totally see a marketing-driven game studio making similar decisions.

ER impressed me so much that I bought three earlier titles from From Software, an additional $120 spent. Regrettably, you show consumer behavior like that to a mercenary games industry exec, and they'll just see "lost opportunity to put the screws to the market" and not "we should make better games."

(This is the first time that I've literally worn out a controller playing a single game).

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