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It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

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Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#671

Post by callamdelaney »

qball wrote: post #669
ajnin wrote: post #666

I hope more country follow suit of Belgium and The Netherlands and classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling, and as such make it heavily regulated and banned to kids. This kind of practices are evidently predatorial and manipulative and should be greatly discouraged.

>classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling Most people who talk about this tend to have no idea what laws already cover gambling. I think that, in this case, loot boxes should be treated like slot machines as far as minimum payout goes; in Nevada (for example) this is minimum 75% by law- meaning that the house must ultimately return 75% of the value it takes in as winnings to its gamblers. As these s…

There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. Value is based on a limit in supply, not only demand. The massive possible amount of supply puts the value at $0. It's worse than gambling.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#672

Post by noobermin »

Timshel wrote: post #503
lekevicius wrote: post #199

It's even more frustrating, because the game is good . I really enjoyed playing the first 30 levels or so. Good story, good controls, very satisfying gameplay. If I could pay $60 and just have a "classic" Diablo on my phone, I might. But I won't spend a cent on consumable in-app purchases. It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds…

> It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds and thousands of dollars". What I find really sad is that multiple games have proven that there is a middle ground and that making a f2p while making enormous amount of money is possible (League of Legend ...) and using such predatory system that are so prevalent on mobile is not the onl…

Also, F2P isn't the only option, we could pay (once) for games like we used to.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#673

Post by nonrandomstring »

q-big wrote: post #230
nonrandomstring wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I managed to cure myself of this addiction by... cheating. I reverse engineered the game and wrote a bot for it. All those silly tasks were now getting done automatically, my progression was assured and the game's hold over me was destroyed. This is absolutely fascinating. It's something I kinda missed from Digital Vegan, thinking that extrication would be a matter only of self-mastery and access to good informatio…

> Therefore the proper solution is to start recognising what some of these companies are doing as crimes. You need the law on your side when you act in self-defence. The only difference is who does the concrete fighting : you by yourself, or let the police and criminal prosecution do the fighting.

Good question. I'm not sure which would be faster and fairer. Police and courts have enough to do dealing with reality, without getting involved in our messy hacker games. So long as the law is clear, we should want people to help themselves first and foremost. The key is really dismantling protectionist laws that enable powerful aggressors, not arming the people with more protectors. On what the law cannot speak it should remain silent, and I do believe that vast tracts of so-called "cyber-law" are absolute rubbish - utterly unfair, bought by lobbyists and written by incompetents to defend the barons' castles. Take this down and let nature run its course to restore the proper balance.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#674

Post by nickjj »

lcw wrote: post #592
pdimitar wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume you would think this is bad right? Of course I agree with that. I was under the impression that we're not discussing whether addiction is bad -- it's widely known that it is. I was arguing that "Minecraft and Roblox and millions of other games feed off the weak minds of virtual cosmetic addicts" does not at all make the pay-to-win model of other games okay. Because it did seem like you went off on a whatab…

Yeah I feel you. I don't think I was whataboutism-ing. The parent comment said PoE is fine because it's just cosmetics in game that you can buy. I guess I should have said you could spend thousands of dollars on PoE on cosmetics, but I'm just stating that one isn't better than the other. The main topic to me is that people are saying they don't like p2w games, and it feels like a weak argument if you say you don't li…

> I just get this vibe that people don't think through their stance these days. They just want what they want, and use ethics to support their point when they don't really have a consistent sense of morality to speak of.

I thought it through and my stance is I do think there's a very big difference between p2w and cosmetic only cash shops from a moral stand point in the context of Diablo Immortal and PoE.

I never felt like PoE was trying to push me into buying something. The purchases I've made (0 cosmetic btw, it's been all quality of life things) were on my own terms, I didn't feel manipulated in the slightest. There was no gambling mechanic, it was a straight "I give them money and they give me stash tabs" transaction, there's no catch. I don't need to login every day to keep them, they exist until PoE decides not to run PoE anymore.

The above is a lot different than Diablo Immortal trying its hardest to convince you to buy something because it directly alters the core mechanics of an ARPG which is to make your character stronger by trying to get you to purchase items that make your character stronger. The whole system is set up to make you constantly evaluate "well, should I grind this out 8 hours a day for 4 months or spend $50 to have it in a few days?", and it's painfully obvious.

These elements are also pushed into the game's UI so it's in your face all the time. They also took it 1 step further and introduced a lot of randomness into your real money purchases and they self destruct if you stop logging into the game. I was trying to compare this to a "real life company" like a casino or car salesman but somehow even they seem better from a morality standpoint when compared directly to Diablo Immortal.

So yes, in my mind there is a big morality difference between these 2 games in how they operate their cash shop. One of them feels like inconceivably high pressure sales tactics designed to maximize profits at no cost while the other feels like a game that does everything in its power to kill you with kindness by providing value through entertainment in the game so you end up making purchases because you like the game and want to support the developers, what you get out of that is more like warm fuzzies and some quality of life enhancements (or cosmetic things if that's what you like).

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#675

Post by georgeecollins »

lekevicius wrote: post #199

It's even more frustrating, because the game is good . I really enjoyed playing the first 30 levels or so. Good story, good controls, very satisfying gameplay. If I could pay $60 and just have a "classic" Diablo on my phone, I might. But I won't spend a cent on consumable in-app purchases. It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds…

>> It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works.

That model still works very well, probably as well as it ever has. But now there are also other models for your phone and computer. If people rejected them, only the "make good game, sell it" model would be left.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#676

Post by shrimp_emoji »

jiggawatts wrote: post #664

What upsets me is that in exchange for that money you’re treated to a low quality game. You can just feel the disdain for the user/victim at every step. While launching the game for the first time: 1) No sound! 2) Forced subtitles. 3) Visible tearing in the video because of a lack of vsync. 4) Two tracking and notification permission prompts, including one that lies to you: “Your game is better if we can target ads”.…

>you’re treated to a low quality game

You're not only playing a modern Blizzard game, but a mobile one. This should go without saying. :p

>Two tracking and notification permission prompts

Is one of those the face tracking they put in there to satisfy Chinese government regulations?

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#677

Post by IncRnd »

qball wrote: post #669
ajnin wrote: post #666

I hope more country follow suit of Belgium and The Netherlands and classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling, and as such make it heavily regulated and banned to kids. This kind of practices are evidently predatorial and manipulative and should be greatly discouraged.

>classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling Most people who talk about this tend to have no idea what laws already cover gambling. I think that, in this case, loot boxes should be treated like slot machines as far as minimum payout goes; in Nevada (for example) this is minimum 75% by law- meaning that the house must ultimately return 75% of the value it takes in as winnings to its gamblers. As these s…

In most cases there is no market for the digital assets from a loot box, and many game operators aggressively crack-down on anyone attempting to setup such a market. The digital assets from these loot boxes have no value. These are not lotteries or slot machines as these are currently defined in Nevada, which you quote.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#678

Post by fatbird »

qball wrote: post #669
ajnin wrote: post #666

I hope more country follow suit of Belgium and The Netherlands and classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling, and as such make it heavily regulated and banned to kids. This kind of practices are evidently predatorial and manipulative and should be greatly discouraged.

>classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling Most people who talk about this tend to have no idea what laws already cover gambling. I think that, in this case, loot boxes should be treated like slot machines as far as minimum payout goes; in Nevada (for example) this is minimum 75% by law- meaning that the house must ultimately return 75% of the value it takes in as winnings to its gamblers. As these s…

Kids aren't allowed to play real world slot machines either, are they?

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#679

Post by eyeownyde »

wincy wrote: post #550
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I'm personally not a victim of loot boxes and exploitative P2W tactics because I just don't buy them. But I just want to pay some amount once and have a good game in my Android phone, without ads and without constantly nagging me to spend more! I'll pay $60 also if the game is good, I just don't want to be put into a Skinner box constantly trying to milk my "engagement" and my pockets. Is that so much to ask?…

It’s even worse on mobile as the app might forcefully update you to a new Free to Play version. I spent $8 on Galaxy On Fire 2 HD which was acquired by another company then suddenly dropped the price and added ads and in app purchases. Very frustrating.

Similar experience for me. I bought the no ads version of plants vs zombies- “no ads” was even in the title. A few years later EA changed the app name and added ads.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#680

Post by vhgyu75e6u »

jiggawatts wrote: post #664

What upsets me is that in exchange for that money you’re treated to a low quality game. You can just feel the disdain for the user/victim at every step. While launching the game for the first time: 1) No sound! 2) Forced subtitles. 3) Visible tearing in the video because of a lack of vsync. 4) Two tracking and notification permission prompts, including one that lies to you: “Your game is better if we can target ads”.…

I found most of your complains either false or non issue:

1. Ok, maybe a bug.

2. Given that is a mobile game and most people will no have the volume up, it is ok to have subtitles. Not to mention that games that start with subtitles are more accessible and the majority of players actually don't mind them and find them useful.

3. Fair, but given that this is a mobile game, V-sync can be a problem for lower end devices too.

4. False? I cleared the first mission and had no prompt for that and has not requested tracking at all. Android.

5. The hell you talking about? When you start you get a small cut scene and are given full control when they drop you off the ship.

6. The game is mostly online for what I can tell so updates are a given (and you can download areas separately)

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