Norway to track all supermarket purchases? • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#231

Post by MontyCarloHall » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

jvm___ wrote: post #90

giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

You're already being tracked by the grocery stores, wouldn't it be better to be tracked by someone who at least tries to have your best interests at heart vs. the grocery industry who just wants to sell you more?

Realistically, what is the worst possible consequence of a supermarket being able to track you? At worst, I suppose you be could be charged more for purchasing a certain item at that particular chain. I highly doubt this has ever happened, since it's bad for business. The usual consequence for getting tracked at the supermarket is getting a discount on certain groceries via a loyalty program, with zero downsides for you.

What is the worst realistic consequence for a government (which has orders of magnitude more power than a lowly supermarket chain) tracking all grocery purchases? As many other posters have noted, it's reasonable to imagine a progressive sin tax: for example, your sales tax rate increases as your purchase more meat or liquor. This has a much more profound impact than anything the supermarket is powered to do as a result of tracking your purchases.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#232

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

concordDance wrote: post #194

GeorgeBanica wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared with taxes, at least this way everyone gets the same amount of meat independent of how wealthy they are.

This is bad because different people want meat different amounts. Best case you get a meat black market (with corrosive effects on law and order ala alcohol prohibition) which will still lead to very inefficient meat allocation.

[deleted]

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#233

Post by jelling » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

jvm___ wrote: post #90

giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

You're already being tracked by the grocery stores, wouldn't it be better to be tracked by someone who at least tries to have your best interests at heart vs. the grocery industry who just wants to sell you more?

You should consider reading “Seeing Like a State” for a history of how even well intentioned social engineering policies can go seriously off the rails.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#234

Post by srean » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

jacooper wrote: post #188

Beltalowda wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Climate change is stopped by doing meaningful things like stopping oil exports, moving the grid to renewable energy, Not shifting the burden to individuals who contribute almost nothing compared to giant corporations, And doing werid things like banning meat, imagine if they did the opposite, they hike vegetable prices because you don't eat enough meat. If this happens(the article doesn't say this has anything to do…

> compared to giant corporations and doing werid things banning meat

Presumably these giant corporations are after the profits that can be booked by serving the demand. The question is how much of that demand is ultimately attributable to demands generated by the behaviors and wants of the lay people, even if they are not the proximate cause.

Avoiding externalities is a thing. I would rather have that loop hole plugged instead of a persistent socialization of risks and losses and privatization of the gains, now that would be a free market.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#235

Post by jdasdf » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

FreqSep wrote: post #198

verisimi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you agreed to be managed by the government right? Remember when they came round and you signed the contract? To pay 40%+ in taxes? For the ability to vote once every 4-5 years for someone to represent you? You don't? Nor me. Governments presume to have authority over everything in their domain. The belief in the false idea of 'government' by the majority is what sustains their power. It is actually immoral and fr…

Look, I am far from pro-government interference. That being said, I personally disagree with much of your argument here. You implicitly agree to some measure when you participate in the society set up by government. There is today a very common attitude that governments are intentionally only serving a small elite. This populist - perhaps even intuitive - rhetoric is exaggerated for most of the Western world. If you’…

I dispute your assertion that society is setup by the government.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#236

Post by dane-pgp » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #117

forgot_user1234 wrote: post #105

NAV is an Extremely well run org. I believe in the system and I believe Norwegian state will do the right thing Case in point - look at the tech platform docs for NAVs tech teams - https://nais.io/

That's a reasonable stance as long as you believe that no change will ever happen. Neither peaceful change from within, nor violent from outside.

The dynamics of such a system are rarely considered, which is why it's such an easy trap for societies to fall into, especially societies with high regard for their institutions.

It starts with the voices of reason ("Isn't there a danger this data could be abused?") being slowly pushed out, through lack of promotions or being transferred to other departments where they are a "better fit".

Then this government body starts to attract the naive zealots ("Just think of all the good we can do! How could anyone see a problem with us collecting more data?") which becomes self-reinforcing.

The final step is when the ambitious and malicious take notice ("This data must be worth a lot of money to the right people, and I could make sure my political party never loses another election") at which point the entire process is captured and corrupted from the top down.

Avoiding building these systems in the first place is good civic hygiene, and societies need to develop an instinct that if you allow data and power to accumulate in one place for too long, it will start to attract pests.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#237

Post by moistly » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

throwaway4aday wrote: post #44

mateo1 wrote: post #29

People seem to suddenly forget that these transactions are already tracked and individually linked to you. Should we allow anyone to collect that data except democratically elected governments? What's the logic behind this?

If you're talking about the tracking done by reward systems then that's a voluntary agreement that people enter into. You can choose not to use a rewards program. As far as I know, if you use a credit card they only know the total of how much you spent and once again you can choose not to use a credit card or bank card and pay with cash if you wish. This proposed data collection has no opt out option. It's kind of ex…

> As far as I know, if you use a credit card they only know the total of how much you spent

Oh, no, no. They report so much more:

  Merchant name
  Purchase amount
  Date
  Billing zip code
  Sales tax amount
  Tax indicator
  Merchant postal code
  Merchant tax ID
  Invoice number
  Order number
  Customer code (if purchasing cards)
  Item commodity code(s)
  Item description(s) (SKU)
  Unit price(s)
  Quantity
  Unit of measure
  Extended price
  Discount per line item and line item total
  Debit or credit indicator
  Discount amount
  Shipping amount
  Duty amount

https://www.heartland.us/resources/blog/what-to-know-about-l...

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#238

Post by hhjinks » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #162

DeathArrow wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you are tracked by both private entities and the state. I don't want to be tracked by anyone, without my explicit consent, which I should be able to withdraw anytime.

But you agreed to be managed by the government right? Remember when they came round and you signed the contract? To pay 40%+ in taxes? For the ability to vote once every 4-5 years for someone to represent you? You don't? Nor me. Governments presume to have authority over everything in their domain. The belief in the false idea of 'government' by the majority is what sustains their power. It is actually immoral and fr…

You're free to live in the woods if you don't like the deal. You don't get to use any of society's infrastructure if you don't opt in, though. You won't be taxed, of course, since you can't engage with any economic activity within society. I'm sure you could make a nice commune in the wilderness somewhere. Just don't bring anything from society with you, like tools, clothes, food, livestock, seeds. Good luck out there.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#239

Post by FreqSep » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

jdasdf wrote: post #235

FreqSep wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I am far from pro-government interference. That being said, I personally disagree with much of your argument here. You implicitly agree to some measure when you participate in the society set up by government. There is today a very common attitude that governments are intentionally only serving a small elite. This populist - perhaps even intuitive - rhetoric is exaggerated for most of the Western world. If you’…

I dispute your assertion that society is setup by the government.

Yes, I agree and see now that I made a bad choice of words there.

Correcting it I would rephrase it to say that massive components of society are directly facilitated by the government as one example: (roads -> shipped goods, travel experiences, etc)

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#240

Post by photochemsyn » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

FreqSep wrote: post #198

verisimi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you agreed to be managed by the government right? Remember when they came round and you signed the contract? To pay 40%+ in taxes? For the ability to vote once every 4-5 years for someone to represent you? You don't? Nor me. Governments presume to have authority over everything in their domain. The belief in the false idea of 'government' by the majority is what sustains their power. It is actually immoral and fr…

Look, I am far from pro-government interference. That being said, I personally disagree with much of your argument here. You implicitly agree to some measure when you participate in the society set up by government. There is today a very common attitude that governments are intentionally only serving a small elite. This populist - perhaps even intuitive - rhetoric is exaggerated for most of the Western world. If you’…

A small elite utilizing a governmental structure to control a much larger human population is basically the story of history since the dawn of agriculture and the formation of city-states.

A radical relatively recent notion is that democratic systems of government which allowed the public to elect representatives to the decision-making positions within the government would alter this historical dynamic and would eliminate the concentration of real power in the hands of a small group of elites. This notion hasn't really worked out in the USA as it's rather clear that American politicians today almost universally serve as the equivalents of corporate middle managers within a larger power structure controlled by entities like large banks and hedge funds, industrial conglomerates in energy/tech/pharma/ag/etc, military industrial contractors and affiliated government bureaucracies, and corporate and state propaganda organizations, who funnel wealth up to a tiny minority (quite similar in proportional structure to say, the House of Saud's ~15,000 affiliates relative to the Saudi population of what, ~35 million?)

The alternative approach of communism has merely replaced one set of elites (inherited aristocratic wealth) with another (members of government bureaucracies selected by internal bureaucratic politics, see China for example), where the general population doesn't even have the illusion of being represented in a democratic process. In some cases (Cuba) this has indeed raised the average standard of living for the majority of the population, which is an uncomfortable fact for many, although repression of all dissent tends to be the price for that.

Now, maybe equalizing technology can get us out of this mess to some extent, but it truly dates back to the origins of what we call civilization. Kings and priests weren't really possible until farmers figured out how to grow far more food than they themselves needed; some narcissitic types figured out they could control this excess and use it to set themselves up at the top of the social pyramid (rather literally as in Egypt, Mesoamerica, etc.), and that's continued relatively unchanged right on up to the present day (with some improvements of course, for example the elimination of chattel slavery in most places).