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Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#201

Post by tomjakubowski »

dotancohen wrote: post #37
colordrops wrote: post #3

This is probably happening a lot more than the number of reports mentioned in the article indicates. It happens to me every other day in my Model 3. It's also not binary - sometimes it slows down more quickly than other times, or stops too suddenly when a car is stopped in front of you. Seems real easy to get rear-ended. I've only got autopilot, not FSD. It's very conservative. It always considers someone to be in fr…

For what it's worth, I've tried and failed to reproduce this on my Model 3. I've driven next to trucks, motorcycles, under overpasses, under very-low overpasses, near pedestrians, and even passed camels and horses on the side of the road. No phantom braking. That said, when using the lane-assist, I do prefer to keep my foot on the accelerator pedal anyway. To increase range, I try not to get into regen at all unless…

Cool. Adding "are they trying to reproduce an Autopilot bug they read about online?" to the list of thoughts I have when encountering a Tesla on the road.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#202

Post by throwaway894345 »

jjulius wrote: post #133
yupper32 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it often brakes hard and late to the point that people think you're brake checking them, then you shouldn't be using it. They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them. Stop being dangerous on the road. This isn't a game.

>They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them. This is the important part. Doesn't matter what the intent was, the fact of the matter is that the people behind you nearly rear-ended you because of your car's actions. And you, as the driver, never know when you might piss off the wrong driver - brake check the wrong person and suddenly you're in trouble with someone who might not care if yo…

It doesn't make sense to argue that the responsibility for a violent or aggressive interaction stops with the Tesla/etc driver rather than the maniac who responded aggressively. The Tesla/etc driver is responsible for his own driving, as is the person reacting to that driving. Further still, since we're being pedantic about litigating responsibility, the person trailing the Tesla/etc should be leaving plenty of room such that he can comfortably react to abrupt braking (the leading driver might have a good reason for braking quickly!).

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#203

Post by ec109685 »

Retric wrote: post #174
ec109685 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And has it prevented any?

While the erratic behavior of Tesla’s autopilot might cause other drivers to be more cautious are them, I don’t think you should count this in Tesla’s favor. Imagine if every self thriving car company started adding code to scare other drivers, that would definitely have unwanted side effects.

No, I mean by having this feature of lane keeping and cruise control saved lived overall.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#204

Post by throwaway894345 »

ALittleLight wrote: post #172
jjulius wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them. This is the important part. Doesn't matter what the intent was, the fact of the matter is that the people behind you nearly rear-ended you because of your car's actions. And you, as the driver, never know when you might piss off the wrong driver - brake check the wrong person and suddenly you're in trouble with someone who might not care if yo…

Even worse, the person behind you might fail the brake check. I can't believe people are knowingly operating faulty autopilots on public roads. If my car randomly braked I would take it to the mechanic - not continue to drive it.

Autopilot should be fixed, but the problem in your scenario is people trailing others too closely. If you fail phantom braking, you're going to fail real braking whether it's activated by a computer or not.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#205

Post by samatman »

Lightbody wrote: post #161

I don't have AutoPilot: I have a 2013 Model S with zero smarts, not even parking sensors. Every few months, while pulling out of a parking spot, my car will just SLAM on the breaks violently, sometimes when I'm in reverse and sometimes when I'm inching forward. Even at low speeds it's super unsettling.

That's more likely to be a timing problem with the electric motor, you should have that checked out.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#206

Post by jerlam »

lin83 wrote: post #141
jjulius wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that said, once you learn the quirks it is extremely predictable and robust. I feel like a self-driving vehicle is one of those areas where nobody should have to "learn the quirks".

It's honestly like a black mirror episode. "I have to have maintain a mental model of how my black box ML car AI will act so I don't die or kill other road users... and it can be updated daily."

Autopilot in aircraft have a similar problem, which led to the Air France Flight 447 crash in 2009. The airspeed indicators froze over, the autopilot switched from "normal law" to "alternate law", and the pilots failed to understand that the autopilot's protection from stalling no longer applied. They did not have enough training (or were too confused) to fly without the help of automated aids and flew the plane right into the ocean.

Boeing's planes were known for having fewer of these automated aids and thus required more skill to fly the plane, but the 747-MAX debacle threw cold water on that idea.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#207

Post by jMyles »

robonerd wrote: post #126
jMyles wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No disrespect to Ralph Nader, but cars claim about the same number of lives (more in most years) than they did then. Sure, many _many_ lives are saved by seatbelts, but car-centric inner-cities combined with the psychology of invincibility for the people inside the vehicle are a recipe for dead kids in city blocks, and it's an absolute blood bath out there. Sure, there are fewer deaths per capita, and fewer deaths pe…

I don't think a think of the children rhetoric is justified by the data. Only 18% of pedestrian deaths occur at intersections, and only 21% of pedestrian deaths occur during daylight. Of the 6205 pedestrians killed in 2019, only 424 were under the age of 20, and half of those were in the 15-20 year old bracket. The pedestrian fatality rate for adults is 10x higher than that for children (0.46 for 10-14 vs 4.6 for 55-…

> I don't think a think of the children rhetoric is justified by the data.

I'm not a proponent of "think of the children", but I also think that urban areas in the United States are largely designed in ways that put them at substantial risk of traffic fatalities. And I think that your data don't paint the rosy picture you seem to be using them for.

> Only 18% of pedestrian deaths occur at intersections,

You can also say that about 1-in-5 deaths occur at what are supposed to be the safest places for pedestrians to cross roadways. I'd expect it to be far more remote if in fact intersections were designed for people instead of cars.

> only 21% of pedestrian deaths occur during daylight.

I'm not sure this is particularly meaningful - are we to suppose that a civilized society is one in which death can take us, arbitrarily, at night for no good reason?

> Of the 6205 pedestrians killed in 2019

To be clear: this ICD code is very literal - it means people on foot. It does not include cyclists, people in mobility devices, people entering or exiting vehicles, and many other codes which are preventable by producing less car-centric infrastructure. It also does not include deaths from causes other than "traffic", such as those that occur in parking lots.

> The pedestrian fatality rate for adults is 10x higher than that for children (0.46 for 10-14 vs 4.6 for 55-59.)

I have no problem with the idea that adult pedestrian fatalities are a good target for reduction as well, but, as I've noted above, I can't help but notice that you (the report you cite) has focused on codes which are responsible for a higher proportion of adult deaths and which ignore substantial causes of pediatric mortality from cars.

> Furthermore, about a third of pedestrians killed were drunk.

I had a feeling the victim-blaming was coming.

> but telling them to get home before dark is probably prudent

"Prudent" is to stop subsidizing lethality by building cities for cars. Then kids can enjoy the stars without a taxpayer-subsidized death lottery for petro profit.

> And don't let them drink (without supervision.)

OK, yeah. That's a good one.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#208

Post by k8sToGo »

Lightbody wrote: post #161

I don't have AutoPilot: I have a 2013 Model S with zero smarts, not even parking sensors. Every few months, while pulling out of a parking spot, my car will just SLAM on the breaks violently, sometimes when I'm in reverse and sometimes when I'm inching forward. Even at low speeds it's super unsettling.

Could be your seat sensor detecting that you are lifting your butt (maybe even if you don't)

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#209

Post by jstream67 »

tristanb wrote: post #56

I have two teslas and this is a non issue. The rare time it's happened it's a slow down, not a jerk. It just seems like FUD

yeah gotta agree. I suspect it is software version dependent - the most negative comments here always seem to be from folks who don't own teslas - whereas people who do seem to be mostly saying that the issue is getting better not worse.

Tesla topics seem worse than political topics on HN for triggering blind rage

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#210

Post by alphabettsy »

Last week I had a Model 3 cross an intersection in front of me causing me to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting it broadside. It was stopped at the stop sign, I did not have one, and it went anyway. I have no idea if the driver was in control or it was FSD Beta.

Couldn’t help but wonder if there should be a way for other drivers to report bad behavior by self-driving vehicles. I don’t see how it could be implemented or how it would work though.

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