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Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#171

Post by fosk »

silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

Brake checking is an exclusively American thing. I can’t recall anybody in Europe brake checking anybody in the 20 years I drove there, across all countries (Italy, France, Switzerland, Austria, etc), people just get out of the left lane naturally, and who cares if somebody goes faster?

I will never understand this hostile tension in US roads.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#172

Post by ALittleLight »

jjulius wrote: post #133
yupper32 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it often brakes hard and late to the point that people think you're brake checking them, then you shouldn't be using it. They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them. Stop being dangerous on the road. This isn't a game.

>They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them. This is the important part. Doesn't matter what the intent was, the fact of the matter is that the people behind you nearly rear-ended you because of your car's actions. And you, as the driver, never know when you might piss off the wrong driver - brake check the wrong person and suddenly you're in trouble with someone who might not care if yo…

Even worse, the person behind you might fail the brake check. I can't believe people are knowingly operating faulty autopilots on public roads. If my car randomly braked I would take it to the mechanic - not continue to drive it.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#173

Post by ec109685 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #19
robonerd wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You continue using this feature despite these errors occurring daily? The way you describe it makes autopilot seem like an inexperienced teenage driver; I think whatever marginal safety benefit you get from it might be erased by the life-shortening stress such erratic car behavior must induce.

Can't speak for OP, but I'm supposed to be paying attention at all times while autopilot is enabled; as soon as I feel the vehicle may phantom brake, I apply more pressure to the accelerator to maintain speed. I believe the NHTSA is going to require Tesla retrofit radar on all vehicles to mitigate their Tesla Vision functionality deficiency. (submitted lengthy dash cam videos and accelerometer data to the NHTSA as a…

I had much worse results with radar several years than I do now with the FSD that doesn’t use radar anymore, so I don’t think radar is the necessary solution here

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#174

Post by Retric »

ec109685 wrote: post #159
Retric wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes down to the actual risks. The real question is has it actually caused any accidents?

And has it prevented any?

While the erratic behavior of Tesla’s autopilot might cause other drivers to be more cautious are them, I don’t think you should count this in Tesla’s favor. Imagine if every self thriving car company started adding code to scare other drivers, that would definitely have unwanted side effects.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#175

Post by kube-system »

Brendinooo wrote: post #170
kube-system wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are different failure modes that we care about too. People think about first-party losses much differently than third-party losses. And, people currently take actions to mitigate those losses. Preventable crashes can be avoidable, by avoiding the situations in which humans engage in dangerous behavior. And the factor of control is why people are more comfortable with that failure mode, than a failure mode…

Nah, I think it’s more that people like to be in control. Planes are safer than cars, but plenty of people are afraid of flying. Maybe there’s something psychological about going hundreds of miles per hour thousands of feet in the air, but what I usually hear as the reason is that people don’t like that they’re not in control of the systems. (Also that media plays up plane crashes, but that would almost certainly be…

That's what I meant by

> the factor of control is why people are more comfortable with that failure mode, than a failure mode which may be more unpredictable.

There are situations in which control mitigates risk, and there are situations in which it doesn't. While the average crash rate is relevant to public health, it's really irrelevant to someone who is dead.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#176

Post by ec109685 »

Lightbody wrote: post #161

I don't have AutoPilot: I have a 2013 Model S with zero smarts, not even parking sensors. Every few months, while pulling out of a parking spot, my car will just SLAM on the breaks violently, sometimes when I'm in reverse and sometimes when I'm inching forward. Even at low speeds it's super unsettling.

Have you made an appointment to get it repaired?

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#177

Post by kijiki »

trhway wrote: post #90
pa7ch wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed this always bothered me about cruise control as well. Particularly for electric cars I am wishing for a dedicated physical toggle or slider to instantly disable or dial-back regen for the times I want to coast.

Regen in Prius managed by your foot pressure on brake pedal. I wonder why would anybody do it differently.

Prius will regen slowly when you take your foot off the gas. Just like a Tesla. The difference is that Teslas regen aggressively, so you really notice the deceleration, whereas a Prius will not start major regen braking until you press on the brakes.

If you have the energy flow view up on the screen, you can see the power going from the motor/generator to the battery when you release the gas.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#178

Post by sobjornstad »

fipar wrote: post #68
majormunky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2019 Subaru Crosstrek has adaptive cruise control, and i've had it hit the brakes pretty hard when there's nothing in the way. Luckily it doesn't happen often.

I have a 2021 one and it never hit the breaks with nothing standing in the way. I don't have the manual in front of me but IIRC, it should only activate without an actual obstacle if the circumstances are such that something may be confused for an obstacle (e.g., driving down a steep enough hill that the end of it may be detected as a wall, never happened to me but I've never done more than 25 deg slopes). I know you…

I've never had this happen on my 2017 Forester either in ~30,000 miles of highway driving with the adaptive cruise (the Subaru system is fully vision-based with no radar).

The one issue I've noticed is that it sometimes hits the brakes for cars that are obviously exiting the highway because a tiny sliver of the car is still technically in the driving lane, so I've learned to keep my foot over the gas pedal to override it in that case. The amount of braking isn't scary though, it's just annoying because there's no need to slow down at all.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#179

Post by sorokod »

brtkdotse wrote: post #153
silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

Autopilot sounds about as safe as driving while intoxicated, which makes Autopilot users massive egoists.

i have a bunch of adjectives in mind, most not usefull but perhaps this one: "subjects of lawsuits"

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#180

Post by zozin »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #59

They should give drivers a simple way to notify Tesla exactly when phantom breaking happens. E.g. use the mic and when Tesla users say ‘Tesla phantom’ it would send the flagged data to a central repository to train against. Regardless of your feelings towards Tesla, we need someone to figure out safe self driving before the effort is halted and humanity has to wait a century before a new generation tries again (like…

So I have to take my eyes off the road after my car just phantom braked in order to touch the 0.5x0.5 inch "Report" button on the 15" touchscreen outside my field of view? Oh, and the button will 100% move around on the screen after software updates, so my muscle memory from pressing it for the 1,000th time gets reset each time a new update rolls out...
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