1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#121

Post by bryans » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

mjr00 wrote: post #116

bryans wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're ignoring superchats and tips which is where most of the money comes from. Tips represent less than 40% of revenue for nearly every type of content creator, so let's not exaggerate things. Super Chats are also limited to $500, so you're exaggerating the amounts you've seen. More importantly, you're conflating the original comment's generalization about how "the vast majority" of all highly-supportive fans hav…

Hololive is just one example within a specific niche (and even within VTubers it's not the only one -- Nijisanji is pretty large as well now). Are you really telling me that people like Amouranth, Valkyrae, and Pokimane aren't aware of the girlfriend experience? That the whole hot tub streaming drama that led to the creation of an entire new Twitch category wasn't extremely exploitative of lonely, addicted men? Unhea…

Again, you're exaggerating everything. There are literally dozens of hot tubbers among many tens of millions of creators. You're purely discussing extreme niches which, even when combined, don't represent a significant portion of the overall market. So, I'll reiterate that making a declaration of "the vast majority of super fans being dysfunctional and exploited" is outrageously false and disparaging, not to mention being based on no actual data or working knowledge.

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#122

Post by next_xibalba » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

Keep an eye out for my next blog post:

“100 true fans? Try 10”

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#123

Post by ryanbrunner » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #109

ryanbrunner wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, $5 a month is really the minimum where it starts to make sense with Supercast. I haven't run the numbers, but my gut tells me that supporters really aren't as price sensitive as you think. The conversion rates on a $5 / month podcast and a $10 / month one aren't all that different. Again, for a lot of podcasts, it's less about purchasing a product and more about supporting a creator. Supporting super niche podc…

> The conversion rates on a $5 / month podcast and a $10 / month one aren't all that different. IMO $5.00 is still beyond the price anchoring in most people's minds. You're getting close to the range of Apple TV premium, Youtube premium, Disney plus, Prime, and other bundled content services. Competing as a single content producer is going to be tough. It's natural you get mostly consumers that want to support you ,…

The thing is, for most creators, there's not really much content to sell. The bulk of creators are going to distribute the vast majority of their content for free (they wouldn't be able to get the audience to monetize in the first place if they didn't), so if you're looking at it from the perspective of the value you get for your subscription fee, frankly for most podcasts you're not coming out ahead even at a dollar or two.

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#124

Post by bryans » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

zamadatix wrote: post #118

bryans wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've consulted with several hundred live streamers, and none of what you're saying is reflective of their experiences. It is outrageously false and disparaging to claim that the vast majority (or even a significant portion) of large contributors are somehow dysfunctional and that content creators are exploiting them. Some people build cars for fun and spend their disposable income on that experience. Other people enj…

> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Twitch has a "Gift 100 subs $499" button right in the gift UI. If you haven't noticed that with the several hundred live streamers you've consulted with then it seems by definition the streamers you interact with do not have the Super Fans being discussed yet such fans are common enough for Twitch to make UI…

Making an option available isn't the same as nefarious marketing and intentional exploitation, which is the entirely false claim being made by the OC. You're also acting incredibly inflammatory by suggesting that I am "ignorant of functionality" and "couldn't possibly work with streamers at that level." Unfortunately for your claim, I've consulted with several of Twitch's top 100 music streamers and have years of direct experience with every type of fan, super and otherwise. The OC's claims are nonsense, and your pedantic nitpicking isn't appropriate or applicable.

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#125

Post by Applejinx » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

ryanbrunner wrote: post #42

Applejinx wrote: post #35

Of course this poses other challenges. You'll end up an 'artist' of gilding toilet seats for rich and demanding 'customers' who are very clear on what they want. That ain't me: my branding is aligned with what my actual values and heritage are, and it's profoundly oriented towards the folks who have skills and dreams but no resources, and so I make open source software supporting 'em. I get excited when I can support…

I think the difference between what you're saying and this article is that you have customers, not patrons (or you're treating your patrons like customers). The people who shell out $1K a year aren't generally doing it because they are getting a product or service in return that is worth $1K / year to them, they're doing it because they believe in the mission of the creator and want to help support that. Most of our…

No, you've got it backwards. 'your creators'? Are you affiliated with this type of payment system? I'm in the top 100 music creators worldwide on Patreon, so I figure my observations are salient: it's working for me.

I only have patrons. There's a set of tiers that are all voluntary, and a one dollar and two dollar tier that are very popular because people want to be doing something, especially when they have nothing and I'm helping them out.

In my experience there are two kinds of 'whales': randomly appearing ones who throw money commensurate to THEIR resources (which will appear like a large sum to me), and the ones who want to throw money to get me to do something specific, and they have demands and often go away again if I don't comply. I enjoy the former and am not really interested in the latter.

It's not that I'm mad at them, but if their ideas were that great they would be me… the reason I do as well as I do on Patreon with zero 'extra' and zero 'customers' is because I've got a vision and I'm executing on it. I'm not there to take requests, I'm there to show people something they have not seen, and also to give free opensource tools by way of executing on that vision.

I'm not at all sure the 'people who shell out 1K a year because they believe in the mission' exist. Can't prove it by me, I don't have any of those. I do think there are people out there steering indie media figures politically in that way, but I don't think that counts, I think it's money laundering and a backchannel way of funding influencers to deliver specific messages. That's far from philanthropy, that's business (in the form of politics, usually, but probably there are examples that are more directly just business)

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#126

Post by mwlp » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:30 PM UTC

bryans wrote: post #115

mjr00 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Patreon suggests a higher tier of $30. Those are not "ruin mom's credit" or "dump your life savings" prices, so it's disingenuous (at best) to suggest that something nefarious and exploitative is happening in regards to platforms' marketing efforts. You're ignoring superchats and tips which is where most of…

> You're ignoring superchats and tips which is where most of the money comes from. Tips represent less than 40% of revenue for nearly every type of content creator, so let's not exaggerate things. Super Chats are also limited to $500, so you're exaggerating the amounts you've seen. More importantly, you're conflating the original comment's generalization about how "the vast majority" of all highly-supportive fans hav…

Rushia had five whales donating over $25k to her. I saw a Ninomae Inanis fan drop $30k in Ame's charity stream. Coco had fans that would use two or three alternate accounts to drop multiple $500 chats per stream.

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#127

Post by altdataseller » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

wodenokoto wrote: post #117

altdataseller wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$100 for 1 piece of content, yes, but $100 regularly per month?

Yes. A month. I wanna read an article about the $100/month patreon tiers and the people who pay for them.

Good point. I’d pay 1k for that content

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#128

Post by burnished » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #110

burnished wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>most people don't go from 0 to $1k/year fan in an instant; they'll try out the free service, upgrade to being a $100/year fan, and from there upgrade to being a $1k/year fan How do you know this? I'm mentally contrasting with monetization in games which I don't think follows that model, I think it is more like; if you are spending over 100$ its by repeating some smaller behavior (microtransactions), as opposed to de…

For games it can be frequency of transaction as well as amount that increases over time. I don't think either case is about being particularly thoughtful though. More a sign of that thing becoming more important in your life.

hmmm.

Ok, then I think I can more clearly restate my root question as: "do people upgrade pledge or commitment amounts as a consistent part of becoming one of the top contributers?"

I suspect they don't. I suspect you may increase rate/intensity of microtransactions as a natural part of interaction, but if the financial transaction part isn't an active part of the interaction cycle then the contribution amount probably stays pretty static.

I wonder where I could get data to sketch this out.

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#129

Post by Applejinx » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #106

Why stop at 100 fans when you can have one winning lottery ticket or one sugar daddy. "100/1000 true fans theory" ignores the difficulty and luck required in getting those 100-1000 paying fans. It's a nice story or idea, but impractical for the vast majority of people. Getting even a handful of fans is probably very hard for most people unless you are lucky or famous.

A good observation. If you are the creator trying to please one of your ten very wealthy super-patrons, have eyes on the back of your head because there will be thousands of people, some of 'em better than you, who will want to win away your patron's custom.

You're probably not special enough to hang on to your ultra-wealthy super-patron. There will be someone younger and cuter who'll come along and take 'em from you. Metaphorically, if not literally. And if you've devoted your life to trying to be their ultimate creator, and they leave, then you don't have much of a fall-back position. You've specialized around something that has been taken away. Your branding, your identity, is 'super-patron's ideal artist' and that's no longer true. Nasty.

Re: 1k True Fans? Try 100 (2020)

#130

Post by zamadatix » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

bryans wrote: post #124

zamadatix wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Twitch has a "Gift 100 subs $499" button right in the gift UI. If you haven't noticed that with the several hundred live streamers you've consulted with then it seems by definition the streamers you interact with do not have the Super Fans being discussed yet such fans are common enough for Twitch to make UI…

Making an option available isn't the same as nefarious marketing and intentional exploitation, which is the entirely false claim being made by the OC. You're also acting incredibly inflammatory by suggesting that I am "ignorant of functionality" and "couldn't possibly work with streamers at that level." Unfortunately for your claim, I've consulted with several of Twitch's top 100 music streamers and have years of dir…

Please don't put quotation marks around words and claims which were not said. The quote was "If you haven't noticed that with the several hundred live streamers you've consulted with then it seems by definition the streamers you interact with do not have the Super Fans" and this does not contain either of those quotes or claims you're disparaging as they were never said. Not working with folks that try to get this type of viewer to press this button multiple times per months is a fantastic thing not something to get inflamed about. At the same time it doesn't mean these types of streamers and fans don't exist just because you don't work with them and clearly they do exist or Twitch wouldn't have bothered to make all of these types of options and fancy effects and the aforementioned bad example streams wouldn't have them triggered constantly.

I don't see this as a nit, the claim in question was:

> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo

Which is central to the arguments and the error core not inconsequential. Companies like Twitch have multiple high-cost options like the aforementioned $499 in one click gift button and the larger the cost for the option chosen the fancier/louder the button and after effects look. If you work with several of Twitches top streamers that's fantastic and it should be easy to verify there are many accounts spending orders of magnitude more than $25/month, super fans are the main folks being marketed to with these options and they make up the majority of their use.

Regarding the rest of the GP's claims when it comes to your response:

> Some people build cars for fun and spend their disposable income on that experience. Other people enjoy online content and spend their disposable income ensuring that content keeps getting made, or can be made even better. To declare an entire populations' preferred hobby as "dysfunctional" is plainly inflammatory and entirely inappropriate.

Super Fans donate hundreds of dollars per action to streamers who are sometimes making millions per year. This is not the "I'm tier 3 for my favorite streamer so they can stay full time" crowd it's the "I'm top bit donator/sub gifter on a top channel" crowd. I consider myself part of the former hobby/support group but I can't see any way to construe the latter group as part of the same hobby either. I'm open to hearing ways that whale segment could be though if you'd be willing to expound