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Why America has so few carpenters

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#211

Post by pcthrowaway »

blackgirldev wrote: post #53
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #4

If software engineering and carpentry paid the same, I'd be a carpenter.

Ha. I joined the Navy in the 90s and when I got out I tried to get into auto mechanic school. They wanted me to sign up for an apprenticeship at a car dealership and were happy to take my tuition money. But no one would allow me (female) to apprentice. They would say "sure...wait a bit for a start date" then I would call to ask when to come in and they would always have given the spot to a male student. Even after ge…

I know it's probably not the same, but my ex (a woman of color) has been self-learning woodworking by going to a shared community studio. They also have free courses geared towards women and minorities. Perhaps there's something like that in your area.

It's not the same as getting a paid job (she was doing it as a hobby), but did pick up occasional gigs and had several other offers for work

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#212

Post by throwaway742 »

mauvehaus wrote: post #164
throwaway742 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they want to train a rat?

I think framing this question as either "in the union" or "a rat" is pretty counterproductive. There are good reasons a person might want to learn something without pursuing it as a career. I'd feel pretty impoverished if I was only allowed to know the skills required to do my job because learning the skills required to do someone else's job was forbidden by some cloak of secrecy by those who knew the skills.

Sure it makes sense why you would want to learn, but why would they want to train you?

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#214

Post by MichaelZuo »

laingc wrote: post #73
lotsofpulp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We already have a cost of living crisis, and raising the price of fruit and vegetables by removing these visas for seasonal workers seems like it would hurt everyone without helping anyone in particular. It helps local labor sellers to be in higher demand and hence negotiate higher prices who may have taken the option to pick fruit and vegetables.

I understand that argument, but the very high minimum wage and availability of state support means that in practice there is no market-clearing price for this labour. New Zealanders simply don’t want to do these jobs.

I would bet quite a bit of money that if you start paying $100/hour, start selling fruit at luxury prices, and ban all cheaper imported fruit, the market will clear very quickly. Then again the government may lose the next election because of that.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#215

Post by s1artibartfast »

endisneigh wrote: post #207
shuckles wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soft costs and impact fees for a home in San Francisco or New York can easily be in that range.

Sure, but a permit and inspection does not cost 500K. Making a lot conform might cost that much, sure.

Poster here, 500k was not intended as literal or typical, just and example of how regulatory costs can add to market price.

That said, I have spoken to builders who described city costs of several hundred thousand dollars for renovating or building single family/duplex homes. For start, SF permit costs are a % of construction with 6-9% for the basic permit. If you do the work yourself, you have to pay a % of the market cost if you were to contract it out. Then there are a plethora of additional fees and permits, and you can find some of them here {1}.

I think you are right that the single biggest cost is code conformance, minimum size, construction ect. Some of the requirements are ridiculous. For example California requires electrical outlets every 48 inches along countertops, independent of if I want them at all. This mentality extends to every part of the the permitting process.

https://sf.gov/step-by-step/get-building-permit-house-review

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#216

Post by MisterBastahrd »

mauvehaus wrote: post #174
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember watching a presentation on a high-end woodworker who just happened to be the son of a celebrity. He was working quite a bit with vacuum formed pieces that would sell for several thousand dollars in the 90s, with enough capital outlay from his father's money that he could build a dozen or so items at a time. It was then that I realized that the ability to make a living from crafting high-quality, modern fur…

I'm a furniture maker. I come to the field with a lot of privilege having worked software for some years previously (but not earning FAANG retire early money), and having a spouse whose job provides considerable stability and health insurance. You don't need high end vacuum forming equipment to make beautiful, high-end furniture. There are certainly styles for which that would be required, but through human history,…

I understand, but at the time I was extremely interested in those sorts of vac-formed items. In the same way, I was fascinated with the free-form houses that consisted of metal mesh being covered with concrete. I was simply a kid who wanted to live in a future I designed.

My 7x great grandfather was a french master carpenter by way of Germany built the first iteration of the modern St Louis Cathedral and Ursuline Convents in New Orleans and once found pirate treasure stuffed into the wall of a man's house while attempting to remodel, lol.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#217

Post by iancmceachern »

blagie wrote: post #148
jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

My experience with shorter versus longer jobs, in the tech industry, consulting a few years back: - 30-60 minute consultations, I need to charge $600/hour minimum to make ends meet - 1-2 week gigs, I need to charge $300/hour minimum to make ends meet - 6-36 month gigs, I need to charge $100/hour minimum to make ends meet Making ends meet means covering mortgage, health care, etc., not having a decent lifestyle. There…

Another experienced consultant/contractor here and this 100%. The time overhead is what kills you, spending hours to get an hour of payable work is different than spending hours to get 18 months of billable work. And spending hours of work just to not get the project is common.

It's why actors have agents, if they had to market themselves they'd have no time for acting.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#218

Post by bbradley406 »

kixiQu wrote: post #112
bigpeopleareold wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happened to my father - lost his two right middle fingers on a table saw. I suppose this was before OSHA rules had wider-reaching impact, because he lost them in the late 60s (while working on construction for the NYC housing authority ... so it could have been union at that time, but I don't remember what he said.)

Table saws are no joke, even in the best of circumstances! There definitely is still risk even when you're managing that risk well. (And it doesn't matter how many videos of it I watch, that SawStop stuff still feels like a miracle every time you see a hot dog spared.)

While the SawStop is definitely impressive, almost any modern table saw is safer than one from the 60's due to the standardization of riving knives. For those who don't know, it's the metal fin behind the saw blade, and it's thicker than the body of the blade but thinner than the teeth. It reduces the chances of wood binding on the saw blade (and resulting kickback) by a large amount. They're a required component by many countries and standards bodies.

Add in cheap 3d-printed push blocks, push sticks, and feather guides and almost no one is losing digits these days unless they're willfully ignoring safe practices or using the wrong tool for the job. Tracked saws and 3d printed router jigs have also added options when a piece would be awkward or unsafe to table saw.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#219

Post by greedo »

kortilla wrote: post #72
toomuchtodo wrote: post #33

The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity (with a fair amount of help from globalization efforts). Until the scales tip (and there are signs we’re headed there) and labor has more power with stronger unions, people should not expect workers to take garbage jobs (even in trades w…

> The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity This is a really lazy analysis that ignores all of the productivity gains that came from automation and information technology. People who put together cars didn’t start making less money, they got replaced by robots.

Why do you think all the "foreign" automakers set up factories in the South? So they could avoid the cost of union-workers, or force the unions to lower their costs.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#220

Post by chrisseaton »

gumby wrote: post #204
chrisseaton wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hired a union shop to build my house Aren’t most tradespeople self-employed? How do you have a union when you’re the boss?

For my house, the general contractor I hired ran a union operation. I didn't hire individual welders and plasterers myself. Or perhaps I misunderstood the question. Unions are extremely important for those that don't have a single employer. For a lot of union jobs, you'd go to the union hall to find jobs, often by the day or week for jobs like stevedores (mostly gone now of course). For my house, the contractor had a…

I don't get it - who does the union organise against if there are no managers?

If they're just setting floor prices in an open market, that's a cartel. If they're setting industrial standards, that's a trade organisation.

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