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Why America has so few carpenters

thehustle.co

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#201

Post by retcon »

jimnotgym wrote: post #137
jimnotgym wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No...50 years ago we had the NHS, and sickness benefits, same as today My father and grandfather were both in the trade. 50 years ago there were some safety concerns, especially around scaffolding (asbestos too, but that's its own story). However they all lamented about how much easier it was to feed your family then.

Also 50 years ago if you were building new housing, if your work was sub-standard you did not get paid. There would be a clerk of works checking it was up to scratch. Now it is a race to the bottom

75 year ago in the race to rehouse the UK the government paid for new builds cost plus. My father wrote(and sold for broadcast) a eponymous radio play on the phenomenon of everyone adding five points to the BOM and labor and getting paid automatically by the Ministry of Works. It was D noted.

Edit: My memory was wobbly the title was simply"Money". This (carte blanche for lousy work) created the next housing crisis that's created the currently forty years old UK housing crisis. My father ran the largest mortgage book of that era so saw the disaster up close and filthy.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#202

Post by hash872 »

A few other things that weren't mentioned in the article:

As others in the comments have noted, there's no barrier to relatively unskilled people calling themselves 'carpenters', which drives down wages. This is much less of a factor with plumbing, electrical, HVAC etc.

Like all tradespeople, you ultimately need to own 5 figures worth of specialized tools, which makes the low wages even more pernicious

The construction industry is famously boom & bust/based on economic cycles, which obviously doesn't help anyone's job security

'Carpentry' is a very broad category (to my understanding on the West Coast they have a firmer delineation between frame & finish carpenters), but if you include framing and roofing, it's much more physical than plumbing or electrical work. Ultimately this is much tougher on your body over the decades

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#203

Post by fma »

brianwawok wrote: post #32
fma wrote: post #19

I'm a little surprised it cites carpenters make more than real estate agents. I'd assume a full time agent (not your neighbor who just happened to have a license) could make more than 50k a year. If I recall, average home price now sells at 300k. A realtor keeping 2% after fees...buy/sell 10 houses and that's 60k.

Also most realtors work for an agency, which keeps a big piece of their cut.

Right - which is why I put a 2% take home instead of a 3% which the seller would pay per agent.

"As you become a more established real estate agent, you can often negotiate a split that leans more in your favor. For example, you may receive 70%, and your brokerage will get 30%. But, in the beginning, your brokerage is helping you get clients, so your share is often more modest."

https://www.aceableagent.com/career-center/georgia/what-is-t...

Also per the same article

"Today's Georgia real estate agent makes an average of $69,150. Even with the split, this is about 10% higher than the national average"

Not sure which is more accurate but $60k is what I'd have in my mind for average. The hustle would have a bias in making carpenters salary look high to make their point more appealing...a real estate agent website has a bias in making agent salaries look high.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#204

Post by gumby »

chrisseaton wrote: post #189
gumby wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other big change I saw was the nailgun and chopsaw revolution This. I hired a union shop to build my house, and am thankful for it. for various reasons, construction is mostly lowest quality possible, but everybody on my house had a ticket and the result is obvious (not just appearance but lower cost of maintenance). When I worked at Terrajoule we were not a union shop but we often hired union contractors for s…

> I hired a union shop to build my house Aren’t most tradespeople self-employed? How do you have a union when you’re the boss?

For my house, the general contractor I hired ran a union operation. I didn't hire individual welders and plasterers myself.

Or perhaps I misunderstood the question. Unions are extremely important for those that don't have a single employer. For a lot of union jobs, you'd go to the union hall to find jobs, often by the day or week for jobs like stevedores (mostly gone now of course). For my house, the contractor had a network of people he would reach out to. At Terrajoule, we just advertised in the ordinary way or more commonly asked around, and then we looked at their credentials which generally meant a union ticket for safety critical jobs (which was most of them).

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#205

Post by robk »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #185
jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

I care! I never worked in trade, but perhaps I have an obsessive personality and like it when things are done properly. When I moved to the UK a few years ago, one of the first things I noticed is the appalling quality of work that the construction industry puts out in the UK. It is truly shocking. Everything is just “that’ll do”. It is very difficult to find a true craftsman these days, even if you are willing to pa…

Seriously? Quality feels 2x higher compared to US in my observations

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#206

Post by ransom1538 »

jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

"I have constant pain in my hands, back and knees for my 10 years."

There are a bunch of industries out there where the pay is horrid and the skills required are high. EG: butcher, carpenter, chief, school teacher, most retail, auto mechanic, etc. I would want a high price for "knees".

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#207

Post by endisneigh »

shuckles wrote: post #98
endisneigh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it cost 500k for a housing permit?

Soft costs and impact fees for a home in San Francisco or New York can easily be in that range.

Sure, but a permit and inspection does not cost 500K. Making a lot conform might cost that much, sure.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#208

Post by pcthrowaway »

remus wrote: post #123
throwaway049 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is construction labor really a big factor in the final selling or rental price of a home?

Apparently labour is ~35% of the cost of a house [1] though I imagine this varies a lot depending on the house being built, type of construction, location etc. Still, seems safe to assume labour is a large part of the cost. [1] https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/how-much-does-it-cost-...

Yeah, I would think in a city with a runaway housing market (like Vancouver), it's more like 5%

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#209

Post by coldtea »

remus wrote: post #123
throwaway049 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is construction labor really a big factor in the final selling or rental price of a home?

Apparently labour is ~35% of the cost of a house [1] though I imagine this varies a lot depending on the house being built, type of construction, location etc. Still, seems safe to assume labour is a large part of the cost. [1] https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/how-much-does-it-cost-...

>Still, seems safe to assume labour is a large part of the cost.

Does it? I've read time and again that land is the largest part of the cost - in any place where cost is significant.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#210

Post by hansvm »

paulpauper wrote: post #26
wardedVibe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. to pay ppl enough $ to entice them to do carpentry is not profitable, hence so few of them. I remember climbing a 4,000 ft mountain in a day in the hot sun..you could not pay me enough $ to ever want to do that again, and even if you could, it would never be profitable. That's why things are airlifted.

Funny to hear the mountain example. One of my favorite hikes was a 115F climb up the Flatiron.
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