If software engineering and carpentry paid the same, I'd be a carpenter.
If carpentry paid more I would stay as a SWE
Why America has so few carpenters
121–130 of 251 posts
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.
This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…
> So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite.
Technically correct I guess? The thing is, in construction there is a lot less latitude for you to choose a) from where to lift b) where to put down c) how much you're going to lift d) how often.
> So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourers lifting with their backs, for example? Are they just never taught to lift things correctly?
rolls eyes
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, and figuring out how to get orders of magnitude more housing production at dramatically lower prices is one of the most socially and morally important problems in the world today.
Is construction labor really a big factor in the final selling or rental price of a home?
Apparently labour is ~35% of the cost of a house [1] though I imagine this varies a lot depending on the house being built, type of construction, location etc. Still, seems safe to assume labour is a large part of the cost.
[1] https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/how-much-does-it-cost-...
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…
JFYI, here (Italy, possibly all EU, but I am not sure) the max weight of a sack of cement (or similar, gypsum, plaster etc.) is since quite a few years 25 kg, but it once was 50 kg. A "sane" max limit is 30 kg for a "normal" worker in good shape, so the 25 kg makes a lot of sense. There was a precise technique to lift the 50 kg sack and put it on your shoulder, one single, tiny mistake in the speed or in the amplitud…
In Germany you can still buy 40 kg sacks (but 25 kg seems the default?) but it always seemed very stupid to me. Rather move something half the weight twice than twice the weight once.
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#125My parents met when they were both working construction. My mom was a surveyor and a laborer at various times; she helped get my dad into the union (Philly) and he was a carpenter. My mom stopped it to raise me and my sibling; my dad did it until it entirely broke his body. (I would not be writing this as a college-educated adult if he hadn't had a union pension that kicked in on disability.) I know precisely one per…
Huh. My neighbor growing up was an electrician. By his 40's he struck out on his own with his own company. Made way more money than my family that was doing white collar office jobs. Dude spent his 50's retired on some boat.
But did he make his money as an electrician or an entrepreneur and business owner?
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.
This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…
> Or is this about repetitive strain?
Mostly. In your gym lifting, do you do 300 reps a day? For five or six days per week? For 48 weeks of the year? For ten to forty years? I bet you have more rest days than that.
> is this about technique?
Technique is impossible to apply consistently in blue-collar jobs. You're not necessarily standing on a flat, stable, firm, grippy floor, lifting a stable, ideally-shaped, easily grasped, rigid, non-slippery mass straight up and down close to your torso. There are wind, rain, cold, heat, and much more to deal with.
> Labourers can be taught
This is broken thinking. For health and safety, tasks must be redesigned to fit humans, not the other way around.
Edited to add: humans get tired, get distracted, take shortcuts, hurry to get the job done, or simply make mistakes. Any task design that doesn't account for these and still keep people safe is faulty.
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. They could raise their prices too. When they say "it's not profitable" they mean "we would like to have workers at low pay, but still enjoy selling at low prices".
The market is efficient. You raise prices and pay workers more -> Fewer people are willing to purchase at that price -> You make less profit -> You don't make enough profit to pay people more. It's a complex problem. You could make the same market argument as: if it was profitable to charge more and pay workers more, why doesn't anyone just start a company that does that and outcompete the others?
> The market is efficient.
The market is more efficient, on average, than other methods of price setting. It’s not perfect efficiency (or even close to it).
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#128I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance.
I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure.
The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is true, but also true is being able to supply materials. I would rarely supply construction timber, because either the main contractor or even the client could buy it themselves for the same price. Whereas a plumber would always supply a boiler, a tank, a bathroom...all with tasty discounts that were not available to the public.
The other big change I saw was the nailgun and chopsaw revolution. All of a sudden some ex-labourer was touting a nailgun and was now a carpenter. Nobody seemed to care that they didn't know what they were doing. We started to find we would be called in to do the roof and then some clown who was 'cheaper' was called in to do the rest.
My apprenticship was 3 years with day release to technical college. That day was a complete joke, the college was disorganised, and underfunded.
I have constant pain in my hands, back and knees for my 10 years. Everywhere I go I see bad carpentry, and nobody cares but me.
AMA
Edit: I'm in the UK
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#129Because the pay is too low for the required labor. Court dismissed, bring in the dancing lobsters.
Also the way these pro-trade articles always frame college as some nebulous malignant force pulling people away from necessary, "good-paying" trades is a laugh. As if people who have the option to bring home electrical engineer wages and work in an air-conditioned office would choose to become an electrician instead. There will be some small handful, but the incentives push strongly towards one over the other.
Re: Why America has so few carpenters
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.
This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…
>Are they just never taught to lift things correctly?
Part of it is that you find yourself having to lift in awkward positions often while you're having to carry heavy materials through obstacle courses, up on ladders and down stairs in ways that you'll inevitably have to compromise optimal form all while the wage clock is ticking so you have to hurry. In weightlifting you're afforded proper time and place to practice good form. That's coming from a Carpenter for twenty years and a weightlifter for four. Carpentry and a vehicle wreck pretty much destroyed my back but weightlifting and what I've learned from it has helped restore it somewhat.