Why America has so few carpenters • Hacker News Board

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#141

Post by tuatoru » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:26 AM UTC

For people thinking "pre-fab"/automation is "the answer" to this shortage, I recommend reviewing Brian Potter's blog, Construction Physics.[1]

It ain't so simple. Building sites vary a lot, even in the same neighbourhood. Buildings are very complex, and individuated to meet customer demands. Crucially they are low value per unit mass, so transport starts costing more than on-site construction after two hundred kilometres/miles or so. There are multiple morasses of regulations and regulators.

1. https://constructionphysics.substack.com/

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#142

Post by mlvljr » Sun, May 22, 2022, 9:44 AM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #111

rascul wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.

This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…

No post body was provided.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#143

Post by rdm_blackhole » Sun, May 22, 2022, 10:09 AM UTC

I would say this is not just a problem in the US. In France there is the same problem. The wages just aren't worth it for this kind of hard work.

A good carpenter I knew a while back was making maybe at best 2500 euros per month with overtime after tax with more than 10 years of experience.

Despite being a team leader he still had to lift, bend and work just like his subordinates. You could tell that it was starting to take a toll on his body.

The job is tough, when its cold in winter and you stand on a ladder and its raining and your fingers are frozen, you have to keep going. In summer, you are on a roof and is 35 degrees Celsius outside and there is no shade.

One misstep and you can fall down, but you have to keep going to be productive. So sometimes you bend the rules a little. Then you hurt yourself.

There is also more and more drug and substance abuse in the trades. You take some painkillers at night because your joints hurt. You take blow because you can work faster and longer. Drinking on the job is also well tolerated.

In truth this is a young man's game.

My dad has been in the construction trade on and off for the last 30 years and his body is starting to give up. I myself was a laborer before joining the tech world. I injured my knee on the job and now every once in while I have pain so I have to be careful to not run or walk too quickly otherwise it flares up.

I think construction workers should be closely monitored for physical injuries and be told the truth about their job and the toll it will eventually take on their bodies. Some people think they are invincible.

My dad knew this guy in his twenties(20 years ago) who thought he was the toughest of all. Carrying heavy stuff day in and out, climbing on ladders with a heavy load on his back and shoulders.

The last time I saw him a few years ago(he is know in his forties), he was a broken man and wearing some sort of back support at all times because his back is in shambles. Obviously he doesn't work in the trades anymore.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#144

Post by Gud » Sun, May 22, 2022, 10:20 AM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #124

jaclaz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JFYI, here (Italy, possibly all EU, but I am not sure) the max weight of a sack of cement (or similar, gypsum, plaster etc.) is since quite a few years 25 kg, but it once was 50 kg. A "sane" max limit is 30 kg for a "normal" worker in good shape, so the 25 kg makes a lot of sense. There was a precise technique to lift the 50 kg sack and put it on your shoulder, one single, tiny mistake in the speed or in the amplitud…

In Germany you can still buy 40 kg sacks (but 25 kg seems the default?) but it always seemed very stupid to me. Rather move something half the weight twice than twice the weight once.

However if you are doing it professionally, why not have your underlings move twice the weight? Time is money and all that, besides, if you don’t do it, your competitors probably are so if you don’t want to go under, you’re going to have to do the same thing.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#145

Post by geomark » Sun, May 22, 2022, 10:21 AM UTC

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #143

I would say this is not just a problem in the US. In France there is the same problem. The wages just aren't worth it for this kind of hard work. A good carpenter I knew a while back was making maybe at best 2500 euros per month with overtime after tax with more than 10 years of experience. Despite being a team leader he still had to lift, bend and work just like his subordinates. You could tell that it was starting…

Similar story. My dad was a carpenter doing wood frame construction in southern California. He later got his contractor's license - better money and less physical labor but he still did some construction. I worked summers as a laborer for him when I was in high school. I never got injured but he had injuries now and then. The one that did him in was a fall due to a broken rafter that broke his heel. He could never walk normally after that.

Even when he was young he told me to make money with my brain not my back. He would also tell me to look around at a job site and ask my why I thought there were no old roofers (falls), or painters (paint fumes), or plumbers (solder fumes).

Some of my high school friends got started in construction via my dad. It was good money and they were not the college-bound types. A few years later I heard one of my good buddies cut off his thumb with a Skilsaw. By now most of the others are probably broken down.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#146

Post by nicoburns » Sun, May 22, 2022, 10:52 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #140

jimnotgym wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also 50 years ago if you were building new housing, if your work was sub-standard you did not get paid. There would be a clerk of works checking it was up to scratch. Now it is a race to the bottom

> Also 50 years ago if you were building new housing, if your work was sub-standard you did not get paid. There would be a clerk of works checking it was up to scratch. Now it is a race to the bottom I’m old enough that one of my earliest memories of advice being given on house buying (not to me, I was still to young for that) was of people advising against buying anything from around the time you were praising (whic…

I suspect they’re both correct. House building standards seem to have been trending downwards for at least 100 years if not more. Some things have gotten better of course (fire safety, insulation, etc), but the construction itself tends to be optimised for cost over quality these days.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#147

Post by netizen-936824 » Sun, May 22, 2022, 10:58 AM UTC

Gud wrote: post #144

formerly_proven wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you can still buy 40 kg sacks (but 25 kg seems the default?) but it always seemed very stupid to me. Rather move something half the weight twice than twice the weight once.

However if you are doing it professionally, why not have your underlings move twice the weight? Time is money and all that, besides, if you don’t do it, your competitors probably are so if you don’t want to go under, you’re going to have to do the same thing.

Because that's a shitty, unethical way to operate. Yes, the competitors are also

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#148

Post by blagie » Sun, May 22, 2022, 11:06 AM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

My experience with shorter versus longer jobs, in the tech industry, consulting a few years back:

- 30-60 minute consultations, I need to charge $600/hour minimum to make ends meet

- 1-2 week gigs, I need to charge $300/hour minimum to make ends meet

- 6-36 month gigs, I need to charge $100/hour minimum to make ends meet

Making ends meet means covering mortgage, health care, etc., not having a decent lifestyle. There is overhead to:

- Finding clients

- Billing

- Cancellations

- Marketing

- Commuting

- Networking

- Contracts / legal

Etc. All of that overhead goes down with longer jobs. I don't feel that "longer jobs" are the root culprit here. If I were to guess, the root problem is that anyone can do carpentry (poorly). That sets low expectations on prices. That keeps better tradespeople out, since you can make so much more in any of the other trades.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#149

Post by tristor » Sun, May 22, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

RappingBoomer wrote: post #78

hmm...I recall my dad being a union plumber in 1982 and making $40k..in san antonio texas...granted there was overtime pay, I assume...but it seems that the wages have not really grown much...

I live in San Antonio, Texas and I chatted with my plumber about this when I had to have a gas pipe moved for a kitchen renovation. According to him, if you get your master's license most folks run crews, because you can bill out master rate and supervise and certify journeyman work and the city requires a master's license to pull permits, which is a big chunk of what you pay for as the buyer.

Now, I know that construction trades are boom/bust because I have family in the trades too. I also know the going rate for a master plumber in San Antonio is around $120/hr and it's higher these days due to job demand / labor shortages. $120/hr if you work full time is $250k a year, so I have a hard time believing a plumber still makes $40k/yr in San Antonio, Texas. Journeyman on crews usually get paid $30/hr which is $62k/yr, and roughly the median household income in San Antonio.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#150

Post by v-erne » Sun, May 22, 2022, 11:27 AM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #120

missedthecue wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would carpentry work have to pay before the demand is satisfied? It is my view that many people don't want to do trades at any reasonable rate. I would imagine most people my age would rather make $60k a year answering emails and doing zoom meetings than $120k going to a jobsite early every morning in any weather all year long.

The answer might end up being prefab housing etc. effectively replacing tradies with robots, not completely but to the point where the ones that are there get paid well.

That's a good point - maybe we really do not need all those carpenters? I live in an aparment in a building made from prefabs. All my furniture is made by machines in Ikea factories. I literally never had any need for carpenter.