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Why America has so few carpenters

thehustle.co

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#111

Post by Gareth321 »

rascul wrote: post #81
pyuser583 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a job that employed lots of disabled blue collar workers. It’s the joints: bad knees, bad backs. It’s not like back in the day where you get missing fingers. That’s really rare. But the steady grind of lifting, carrying, lifting, carrying, again and again destroys the joints. That’s harder to regulate away.

Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.

This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourers lifting with their backs, for example? Are they just never taught to lift things correctly? Or is this about dangerous workplaces? Or is this about repetitive strain? Heavy lifting is good for the body, but maybe not 12 hours of the same heavy lifting.

IMHO, all of these can be relieved through workplace reform. In other words, manual labour doesn't have to result in a broken body. Labourers can be taught how to lift correctly. They can be given a safe environment; and they can be rotated to lots of different tasks to prevent RSI.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#112

Post by kixiQu »

bigpeopleareold wrote: post #100
kixiQu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only heard the, you know, missing-finger classic table saw horror stories very indirectly, honestly. My parents both spoke of OSHA rules like they were the gospel of the earth below, and the union had the power to ruin the company's day if they weren't following them. Non-union work here is very, very different, though -- some stories aren't mine to repeat, but I'll note "Helpers, construction trades" here: http…

It happened to my father - lost his two right middle fingers on a table saw. I suppose this was before OSHA rules had wider-reaching impact, because he lost them in the late 60s (while working on construction for the NYC housing authority ... so it could have been union at that time, but I don't remember what he said.)

Table saws are no joke, even in the best of circumstances! There definitely is still risk even when you're managing that risk well. (And it doesn't matter how many videos of it I watch, that SawStop stuff still feels like a miracle every time you see a hot dog spared.)

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#113

Post by barry-cotter »

closeparen wrote: post #58
coldtea wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. They could raise their prices too. When they say "it's not profitable" they mean "we would like to have workers at low pay, but still enjoy selling at low prices".

Yes, and figuring out how to get orders of magnitude more housing production at dramatically lower prices is one of the most socially and morally important problems in the world today.

Not really. Most of the cost of housing is land anywhere it’s expensive. We have the technology to stack dwellings vertically. Where that’s illegal and there’s lots of demand housing is expensive. Otherwise not.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#114

Post by thatguymike »

Gareth321 wrote: post #111
rascul wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.

This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…

When you lift weights, you can choose a weight that’s appropriate to you. When it gets too heavy, you stop. When you’re finished, you rest for a day or two. When you feel a twinge, you easy up or take a rest day.

When you’re lifting heavy things for a job, you lift whatever needs to be lifted in whatever motion it needs, with incentives to do it quickly. If you’re tired, you lift it anyway. If you feel a twinge, you probably ignore it because it’s probably nothing. Then you do it again the next day regardless of whether you feel like it.

Some of that can be mitigated by workplace rules, but it needs pretty radical overstaffing or acceptance of considerably slower work, neither of which Capital is a big fan of.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#115

Post by pdpi »

Gareth321 wrote: post #111
rascul wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.

This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…

Lifting, twisting, turning, etc heavy things isn’t intrinsically bad, but it is intrinsicallyr risky. In a gym environment you have the ability to control that risk.

As a lifter you have full control over how many reps you do, you have all the time in the world to make sure your form is good before lifting, you don’t need to move around while carrying that weight, and you’re lifting conveniently-shaped weights.

Also, even the most well-maintained mechanical device will eventually suffer from material fatigue when put under load for significant amounts of time. Our bodies are no different.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#116

Post by [deleted] »

barry-cotter wrote: post #113
closeparen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and figuring out how to get orders of magnitude more housing production at dramatically lower prices is one of the most socially and morally important problems in the world today.

Not really. Most of the cost of housing is land anywhere it’s expensive. We have the technology to stack dwellings vertically. Where that’s illegal and there’s lots of demand housing is expensive. Otherwise not.

[deleted]

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#117

Post by quickthrower2 »

refurb wrote: post #71
kixiQu wrote: post #16

My parents met when they were both working construction. My mom was a surveyor and a laborer at various times; she helped get my dad into the union (Philly) and he was a carpenter. My mom stopped it to raise me and my sibling; my dad did it until it entirely broke his body. (I would not be writing this as a college-educated adult if he hadn't had a union pension that kicked in on disability.) I know precisely one per…

Huh. My neighbor growing up was an electrician. By his 40's he struck out on his own with his own company. Made way more money than my family that was doing white collar office jobs. Dude spent his 50's retired on some boat.

He is probably a businessman who started as an electrician

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#118

Post by jaclaz »

Gareth321 wrote: post #111
rascul wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hauling materials breaks your body over time. I know from experience.

This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…

JFYI, here (Italy, possibly all EU, but I am not sure) the max weight of a sack of cement (or similar, gypsum, plaster etc.) is since quite a few years 25 kg, but it once was 50 kg.

A "sane" max limit is 30 kg for a "normal" worker in good shape, so the 25 kg makes a lot of sense.

There was a precise technique to lift the 50 kg sack and put it on your shoulder, one single, tiny mistake in the speed or in the amplitude of the movement and it was very, very likely you would strain your back.

In the old times it was rather common as an accident on building sites, and anyway even people that never made a mistake have had their backs ruined over the years.

The "main" study/manual on the matter is actually US originated, by NIOSH, dating to 1994, that has been recently updated:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/94-110/default.html

not limited to construction only, it applies on whatever activities imply moving loads, particularly if in a repetitive manner.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#119

Post by quickthrower2 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #101
rdtwo wrote: post #3

Like every other profession with a supposed shortage the pay and work conditions suck. And guess what shortage… It’s like there is a shortage of people willing to pick fruit at 10$ an hour and live in terrible conditions while exposed to harsh chemicals. No shit you need to pay people a whole lot more money

How much will you pay for that fruit? Because that will limit how much the farmer can pay the fruit pickers. Automation is the key to getting out of this trap: just build robots to pick the fruit and problem solved. I expect that is the only other way out of all our labor problems except for maybe the child care crisis (licensing boards are adamant about staffing requirements per kid even if that isn’t affordable).

If your job is replaced by a robot you can now have time to look after your kids. The problem is the person profiting from the robot is not the same person who needs the money to raise their kid.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#120

Post by quickthrower2 »

missedthecue wrote: post #43
toomuchtodo wrote: post #33

The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity (with a fair amount of help from globalization efforts). Until the scales tip (and there are signs we’re headed there) and labor has more power with stronger unions, people should not expect workers to take garbage jobs (even in trades w…

What would carpentry work have to pay before the demand is satisfied? It is my view that many people don't want to do trades at any reasonable rate. I would imagine most people my age would rather make $60k a year answering emails and doing zoom meetings than $120k going to a jobsite early every morning in any weather all year long.

The answer might end up being prefab housing etc. effectively replacing tradies with robots, not completely but to the point where the ones that are there get paid well.
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