On Aging Alone (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#251

Post by denton-scratch » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

taylorius wrote: post #133

I'll add my own data point into the mix. I'm 49, have been married for 22 years, with kids who are either grown up, or well on their way. Throughout my life though, I have been an absolute loner in spirit. I grew up quite isolated, in the UK countryside, and learned to amuse myself early on. My first love was computers, which luckily has served me fairly well, career-wise. I haven't had many girlfriends, and felt ver…

/me 65, two kids, two grandkids, two marriages, each of about 15 years. Both times the wife divorced me, rather than vv. (and no doubt that says something about me). Both times the relationship was rocky, but I would have stuck it out were it not for being sued by my supposedly-trusted life partner.

I haven't had many girlfriends either, but I haven't felt that as a "lack". I've never had many friends either - usually not more than three or four good friends at any time.

I now live alone, and I don't see many people. I talk to my exes fairly regularly, and I'm on good terms with my kids - but they live faraway. I'm not "lonely", though, in the sense that being alone makes me sad or regretful. I'm fine with my own company. I like to crack jokes and talk politics, so I miss those occasions; I miss cuddling a warm woman; and I'd like to have someone living with me, to pick me up if I fall over, and to look after me if I get ill. But those things are basically transactional, not about loneliness; I could pay someone to provide those services.

I'm not a "loner" - I like people, and people like me. I'm not shy. I think it's just that I find that cultivating casual friendships in the hope they might blossom is a lot of work, so I don't cultivate many. And the idea of having two girlfriend relationships at the same time - i.e. while one is ending and the other beginning - fills me with dread, and I've never done that.

Like you, I've spent my career in IT. I've never made a good friend at work. I mean, I've made "friends" with people at work, and even brought them to my home and made dinner for them; but they were never good friends. I'm a bit idiosyncratic in my tastes, and many of my attitudes and opinions are quite leftfield. These work-friends were all very straight, by my standards. I've no objection to people being "normal" - by definition, the majority of people are - that's no obstacle to being friends, for me. But it may have been an obstacle for them.

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#252

Post by taylorius » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:43 PM UTC

jjfoooo6 wrote: post #239

taylorius wrote: post #133

I'll add my own data point into the mix. I'm 49, have been married for 22 years, with kids who are either grown up, or well on their way. Throughout my life though, I have been an absolute loner in spirit. I grew up quite isolated, in the UK countryside, and learned to amuse myself early on. My first love was computers, which luckily has served me fairly well, career-wise. I haven't had many girlfriends, and felt ver…

> I would like to start living life as I would like it, both career and relationship wise If you'd be comfortable sharing, why do you feel this is not something you can achieve with your partner?

Sure, I can share - and needless to say, the vast majority of the problem is on my side. My wife is indeed a great woman - very emotionally focussed though, in quite an intense way, and highly intelligent in an intuitive way. She's honest and loyal though, and good looking. A real catch, in other words. The problem that I bring, is that I don't really have a core personality (at least, not one that anyone sees - I have my own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark, and need extensive filtering before being presented to the world at large). So I run "sub programs" to talk to other people on a level that is suitable to get along with them. I think everyone does this to an extent - I certainly do anyway, I always have.

So the problem comes, because my wife is an exceptional empath, with what seems to me like almost supernatural intuition. And she sees through my little constructs in a second, and demands they be pushed aside, in order to get to know the "real me" beneath. Trouble is there is no "real me", apart from the rather dark, turbulent thoughts that churn the waters of my inner life. Therein lies the problem, a perpetual game of hide and seek, and I find it rather wearing. (Largely my own problem though, as I said).

Apologies if the above sounds a bit weird, or off-putting or whatever. Anyway - you did ask! :-)

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#253

Post by didericis » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

Tenoke wrote: post #167

didericis wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I'm interpreting you correctly, but if you're claiming what I'm talking about is just theoretical, real life communities have existed throughout the entirety of our species. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for companion AIs, I just think it's horrible to consider them as anything other than a narcotic. They might work as a replacement for companionship in tragic situations where there are no other…

Real life communities have existed yet we still have lonely people so suggesting we dont work on a solution that helps them because those exist seems like cruelty borne out of idealism. >I don't see how it's impractical to encourage people to hang out with each other. You are now writing as if you just promoted communities while your original comment I replied to specifically started with 'How about we not do that'.

My original comment was advocating we not create companion AIs and try to substitute real companionship with robots, and I was in fact trying to promote the creation of real communities.

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#254

Post by buildsjets » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:50 PM UTC

hn_version_0023 wrote: post #215

bowsamic wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is worse for it than a lot of other western countries tho. Unless you’re religious, that is

I’m a lifelong atheist, but I am starting to look at religion simply for the community and fellowship. But honestly I don’t want to be religious. It seems like it entirely suspends one’s ability to think critically, and I have so little of that particular talent that letting go of what I do what feels like a disaster in the making. It feels exceptionally hard to go into it with an open mind.

Have you considered Unitarianism for community/fellowship/moral framework? They are we accepting of both atheists and people of varying faiths. (Note, not a Unitarian, but my wife grew up in the community)

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#255

Post by taylorius » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

jes wrote: post #219

taylorius wrote: post #133

I'll add my own data point into the mix. I'm 49, have been married for 22 years, with kids who are either grown up, or well on their way. Throughout my life though, I have been an absolute loner in spirit. I grew up quite isolated, in the UK countryside, and learned to amuse myself early on. My first love was computers, which luckily has served me fairly well, career-wise. I haven't had many girlfriends, and felt ver…

I am 62. About fifteen years ago I could have written almost exactly what you have written above. I blew up my long term marriage because of my fucked up thinking. It was a horrible mistake and one that I regret essentially every day. Of course, maybe it's all different for you. I mean that. I'm only suggesting something to check. Have a look at the material under "Nice Guy Syndrome" by Dr. Robert Glover. [1] Maybe g…

I'm sure I fit that "Nice Guy Syndrome" profile to a considerable extent. I'll take a look at the audio book. Thanks a lot for the advice!

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#256

Post by taylorius » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

jjfoooo6 wrote: post #249

taylorius wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great advice - I had a therapist for a couple of years, but stopped during covid. I think I will try to find another though - 100% worth it, as you say.

Consider also a couples therapist, all the same rationale applies. In either case, read up on the process for finding one that works you (and maybe your partner). Make sure it's someone you respect. There's a wide variety in quality, and if it's someone who you do not take seriously it will not be a good use of time. Good luck

Thank you very much for your replies to what I said - it's good advice, and I'm grateful you would take the time to offer it!

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#257

Post by didericis » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

panaffa wrote: post #182

didericis wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I'm interpreting you correctly, but if you're claiming what I'm talking about is just theoretical, real life communities have existed throughout the entirety of our species. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for companion AIs, I just think it's horrible to consider them as anything other than a narcotic. They might work as a replacement for companionship in tragic situations where there are no other…

I agree with the sentiment, but tbh a lot of people suffer alone on this planet and designing societal structures to serve absolutely everyone's emotional needs would be impossible. An AI would be perfect for all the misfits, elderly, loners, disabled, "ugly," outcasts, etc, right?

Think about what you're saying a bit. Why are the "others" you're describing destined to be alone? At the very least, couldn't they have each other?

It's easier and more rewarding to just be more compassionate to others, and I don't think it's impossible to design social structures that at least make some attempt to serve everyone's emotional needs. Whether they'll be successful is circumstantial, and I don't think it's possible to make everyone perfectly content and with the perfect companions all the time, but we can encourage a culture of genuine curiosity and care for others that tries to move in that direction.

Giving is only draining to those who are still in an insecure and narcissistic phase of emotional development. It's extremely rewarding to give to others and help meet their needs and encourage growth, regardless of status difference.

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#258

Post by vinceguidry » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

openknot wrote: post #100

vinceguidry wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never once had a "'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship." Did you really never have ongoing romantic tension with someone you interacted with regularly? It seems rather inevitable for young people to find themselves in one of these. Even the loneliest people I know have mustered up some kind of tension with someone, even if they were never able to act on it.

While respecting ethics (e.g. never asking someone where I was in a position of any power over, even if it was a volunteer student club), I respectfully asked out the people where I did feel that kind of tension (in other words, I always asked out the people who I had a crush on when I was a teen, except when there were professional boundaries). Unfortunately, I got turned down several times. One initially said yes,…

Ethnicity can be a hard barrier to overcome for men, I've noticed. Guys from certain parts of the world seem to have a tough time navigating American social norms around dating and such. Perhaps where they're from they never interacted socially with the opposite sex. So they have a really tough time connecting 'normally'. And it seems to build this big wall between themselves and women, unnecessarily.

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#259

Post by bowsamic » Sat, May 21, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

snvzz wrote: post #232

bowsamic wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I'm not scared of death doesn't mean I don't see any reason to live. I enjoy life and living. I would pursue treatments but there is eventually a limit past which I would not bother

SENS is not about keeping people alive and miserable past that limit. It is about undoing aging, so that you can be young and healthy instead. Living longer is just a side effect of that, as aging kills people.

Yeah I don't really have any desire to be younger or healthier

Re: On Aging Alone (2021)

#260

Post by denton-scratch » Sat, May 21, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

walleeee wrote: post #75

wfme wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing transactional relationships, but there are other types of more self perpetuating relationships. Transactional relationships are built on the expectation for reciprocation, so every interaction is performed with the expected outcome in mind. Within a transactional relationship, bonds are broken the moment one of you doesn't hold up your end. For this reason, these relationships tend to be fragile an…

Imposition and compromise need not derive from a transactional relationship model One can just as well feel compelled to constantly compromise if one's acquaintances don't share one's needs and values, for instance

Compromise is indispensable. I can't imagine sustaining a relationship with someone who wouldn't compromise, and I can't imagine anyone wanting a relationship with me, if I were the kind of stubborn ass that doesn't compromise.