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Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

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Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#251

Post by DharmaPolice »

weldedtogether wrote: post #196
dsr_ wrote: post #141

Can we agree that different people have different optimal working styles? Some people get everything done first thing in the morning and are useless in the afternoons. Some people can't get started until noon whatever their local time is. Some people can commit to 10 or 12 hour days, and if so, it's not fair to ask them to work 5 days a week at that rate. Some people work best in private offices, some at separated wo…

We see the same issues in education with kids learning in different ways, and those who learn better in X way might learn less because they're being taught in Y way. It comes down to the overhead in time and complexity (usually money as well) being too high to justify accommodating everyone. We just sorta jam everyone into the same thing and figure we'll get enough out of them. As the culture shifts more toward worke…

Clearly we can't accomodate everyone but it seems achievable to work toward a culture where (for example) meetings are discouraged at 6pm where some employees start at 8am or 9am.

One of the very minor customs that has developed (spontaneously) in my organisation (and I assume elsewhere) during the pandemic is (internally) people are quite likely to ask if it's OK to call you. This isn't a rule and obviously doesn't apply with anything urgent but it's starting to feel almost approaching rude now to call someone about a routine matter without checking whether they've got a minute for a call. Personally, I like that.

A lot of emphasis is understandably given to statutory/regulatory intervention to protect workers but there are small cultural things we can do to make work a bit less awful (like not scheduling your team meeting at a time when you know multiple people are taking their kids to school or right at the end of the day where you know people have trains to catch or whatever). These don't need to be documented corporate policies (because then it becomes something else) but just customs that quietly evolve over time.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#252

Post by mym1990 »

paulsutter wrote: post #234
junipertea wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different learning styles are actually disputed [0], but I agree that 1. it's easier for employer to fit everyone in one box. 2. If people had more individual approaches, they would work better [0] https://www.educationnext.org/stubborn-myth-learning-styles-...

Your link doesn't demonstrate that all people learn in the same way, merely tries to debunk a specific/narrow set of learning styles (that seem bizarre in the first place)

The idea is that many people will learn best when a combination of teaching methods are present, rather than one person always being taught in style X vs style Y. But most schools and teaching institutions are setup as farms that make students believe that if they don't find success in this narrow little box, then they must be dumb or doing something wrong.

Surely the idea that people learn in the same way is as bizarre as the idea that people learn in one of 4 ways.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#253

Post by freedom2099 »

rr808 wrote: post #203
freedom2099 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are hardly minimum wage jobs! And the human brain can’t sustain constant thought intensive tasks for long period of times continually… The dawn to dusk (if ever happened… I guess it depends on the country) it’s just a waste of time. Anyway I live on France and here the official working week is 35h!

Agreed they're skilled jobs and you can't write code 50 hours a week. You can write code 30 hours a week then talk with users, have design meetings, do paperwork, do first level support etc. France is a nice place to live. Everyone working 35 hrs and being on holiday so often is a good reason its economy is slowly dying.

Better dead and happy than overworked and depressed trying to feel the void caused by not having a life with work!

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#254

Post by TameAntelope »

paulsutter wrote: post #234
junipertea wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different learning styles are actually disputed [0], but I agree that 1. it's easier for employer to fit everyone in one box. 2. If people had more individual approaches, they would work better [0] https://www.educationnext.org/stubborn-myth-learning-styles-...

Your link doesn't demonstrate that all people learn in the same way, merely tries to debunk a specific/narrow set of learning styles (that seem bizarre in the first place)

Here are a few better sources. "Learning styles" are not established science, by any means.

https://career.ucsf.edu/sites/g/files/tkssra2771/f/Article%2...

https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA628405045&sid=googleS...

https://poorvucenter.yale.edu/LearningStylesMyth

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/the-myth...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-problem-with-...

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#255

Post by Consultant32452 »

dsr_ wrote: post #141

Can we agree that different people have different optimal working styles? Some people get everything done first thing in the morning and are useless in the afternoons. Some people can't get started until noon whatever their local time is. Some people can commit to 10 or 12 hour days, and if so, it's not fair to ask them to work 5 days a week at that rate. Some people work best in private offices, some at separated wo…

I produce as much as my teammates working about 1-2 hours 5-days per week. It would be a massive social problem for most employers to let me get paid what I make and have everyone see me only working 1-2 hours per day. That's why I had to switch to consulting. My case is extreme, but that's why you won't see employers letting people have visibly different work arrangements.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#256

Post by v-erne »

high_byte wrote: post #110
refurb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my old job we used to get Friday’s off if we worked 9 hrs the first 4 days. People just worked 8 hours and didn’t come in Friday’s.

Over here commute is part of work by law, so I assume it would count as 9 for most people?

Which country is this? I would love to have commute as part of work in my country. Fom the point of law employees materialize at work in the morning and than teleports to home in the evening (the creator of work code here must have been fan of star trek). I believe this kind of change in workers law would motivate employers to implement more sane WFH policies.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#257

Post by bityard »

junipertea wrote: post #222
weldedtogether wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see the same issues in education with kids learning in different ways, and those who learn better in X way might learn less because they're being taught in Y way. It comes down to the overhead in time and complexity (usually money as well) being too high to justify accommodating everyone. We just sorta jam everyone into the same thing and figure we'll get enough out of them. As the culture shifts more toward worke…

Different learning styles are actually disputed [0], but I agree that 1. it's easier for employer to fit everyone in one box. 2. If people had more individual approaches, they would work better [0] https://www.educationnext.org/stubborn-myth-learning-styles-...

I read that article but it doesn't seem to actually say much, other than "leaning styles == bad." My best guess is that the author has built a strawman and his definition of "different learning styles" is markedly different (or narrower) than the common understanding of the phase.

I consider myself a pretty open-minded individual and a strong adherent to the idea that (properly conducted!) science furthers human progress, health, and happiness. But there's no way anyone can convince me that, given the exceptionally wide variability in the way human brains process information, that there is "one true way" to teach somebody something. Or even "one true way" for a specific individual that applies to all subjects.

For instance, there is an entire generation who seem to learn faster and/or better by watching well-produced videos on a topic. For them, reading a textbook or other forms of documentation takes too long or just plain doesn't work. This is basically what all of those modern online course sites and coding bootcamps are doing.

I'm the complete opposite. I'd rather sift through book-sized volumes of written documentation and tutorials (or in a pinch, a textbook) to quickly gain an overall big-picture view of a topic and then dive into specific details as necessary. For me, watching videos takes too long, and I get bored and sleepy watching them. Give me something to read, reflect on, and play with.

Another example: my son, unlike most of his peers, can't sit still in a classroom. Nor can he watch educational videos for any particular length of time. He is not (yet?) a self-directed learner because if you put him in front of an electronic device of any kind, he will tinker with all of the settings on the device instead of using it for its intended purpose. However, he absolutely excels at one-on-one tutoring because I have managed to teach him some fairly advanced (for his age) math, computer, and electronics concepts just by sitting down and talking about these things with him as if it was just casual conversation. The problem, of course, is that the way schools are structured, this cannot possibly scale even to just the kids that need it the most.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#258

Post by ErrantX »

dragonwriter wrote: post #250
ErrantX wrote: post #55

So I am seeing more and more of ideas like this; but I feel the need to challenge them a bit. Not the ideal; work less, have more fulfilling lives - I am all in. But all of these initiatives are focused on the wealthier office workers and sometimes factory/shift workers who are non-customer facing. But it totally ignores the service industry which is a huge part of our society (and arguably even more so if we end up…

> You will still want an Uber after 5pm, No, I don't. I want a way to get where I want to go after 5pm, sure, but reduced working hours means, necessarily, that for a greater portion of the population than is currently the case, that will not be an individual, human-driven conveyance per party seeking transportation, and that's fine. > 4 Day work weeks, shorter hours - all great ideas but all ideas that either negati…

> Your argument that they do is based on the assumption that they are not applied to that group

I'd qualify it more as; I don't believe these ideas are easy to implement for that group vs. non-service roles.

Now, I am based in the UK so things may vary around the world but I disagree with your assertion about the wage & hours laws.

For example; here we have a maximum working week of 48 hours. This was supposed to help people in the service industry but actually it mostly helps office workers. We have leverage to kill off the crazy hours expected in creative roles. However, service workers have wage pressure to sign waivers to let them work more than the 48 hours (because minimum wage is not a living wage).

These things have to work in tandem to drive up lower-income wealth but they just don't - so I object to other initiatives which don't directly address the problem.

Anything that says "just hire more people" is an unsustainable plan which ignores the economics (most people work in service industry, and mostly in part time roles). The outcome of increasing demand on that industry OR forcing the full time workers to work less is that the part-time workers would need to work more.

> No, I don't.

Great! We all need this attitude.

But I assert the vast majority will still want their 10pm Starbucks, Friday restaurants and Sunday shopping trips (also, it's not a high-wage sacrifice - the majority are also service workers and they also want these things, it's a circular economy!).

Oddly we are probably largely in agreement; I just think we need to be more radical in how we fix this otherwise we will just have another cycle that depresses the lower-income workers opportunities.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#260

Post by Hermitian909 »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #174
joadha wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you maximize opportunities for collaboration?

Maybe I trust people too much, but I feel people will find and make their own opportunities to collaborate if they feel like collaboration is required to complete their tasks. If you're maximizing "opportunities to collaborate" you're probably taking their attention from their work unnecessarily.

> Maybe I trust people too much, but I feel people will find and make their own opportunities to collaborate if they feel like collaboration is required to complete their tasks.

I find this breaks down at larger companies. The problem is that people often do not understand when collaboration is required. This is usually not their fault. Someone up failed to communicate up or down the chain (either on the receiving or sending end).

I've watched groups reproduce each other's works, bungle rollouts, etc. based on this lack of communication. The cost of these miscommunications was sometimes greater than everyone's salary put together. A truly excellent culture of communication and collaboration reduces the frequency and severity of these events but there's no silver bullet.

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