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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#121

Post by curiousllama »

fabian2k wrote: post #92
throw-nocoiner wrote: post #84

The way Sweden and Finland admission process unfolded makes a complete mockery of democracy Rushed, decided behind closed doors, by a small clique of elites, without any semblance of democratic mandate, unconstitutional, no real public debate, no referendum, all in an atmosphere of McCarthy-like media frenzy. Any nuance is instantly brushed aside as Putin's propaganda The polls put the support at ~52% in Sweden and ~…

It's disingenious to only state the support percentage for polls that also have a significant amount of "don't know / don't care / undecided" answers. And the polls I've seen all had a pretty large amount of responses that were not directly opposed to joining NATO. The most recent poll I've seen for Finland also has an even higher percentage of support for joining NATO now than your poll.

Not to mention, NATO can't accept any countries with an active border dispute, because it would immediately trigger Article 4. As a result, Russia has an established strategy of taking a slice of any country that considers joining NATO. It worked in both Georgia & Ukraine.

If you don't move quick, you won't move. This is the purpose of representative democracy - to allow trusted leaders to make decisions like this on your behalf.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#122

Post by smcl »

qiskit wrote: post #28
belltaco wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country or countries is India a vassal of?

India is still part of the british empire/commonwealth. They gained independence and left the british empire. A few years later, they rejoined it. They actually claim the british queen as their head of state - even if it is ceremonial only.

The idea that India is a British vassal state is probably one of the funnier things I've read here recently. I'd love to know the real justification behind why you believe this, but I suspect it's just a combination of ignorance and conspiracy theory

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#123

Post by stjohnswarts »

whimsicalism wrote: post #68
ericmay wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but it's not just about military size, it's about cooperation. There's no point in having a military that's 30x the size of another one if they don't really cooperate with you. > calling things racism is taboo on HN so I will refrain In this case it's because it's just wrong. Sweden is by and large a peaceful, democratic, liberal democracy that has free markets and cooperates with NATO member states on a variety…

> there's absolutely no reason for Turkey to object over Sweden joining NATO in the first place This is disingenuous. The YPG question is not "no reason" for Turkey. (I disagree about the reason, but it is still an actual concern for the Turkish government). > if they don't really cooperate with you. Turkey absolutely cooperated extensively with the US & NATO. Militarily, much more so than Sweden does.

Of course Turkey cooperated more extensively with NATO, I mean it's part of NATO and Sweden is currently a neutral nation...

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#124

Post by alkonaut »

whimsicalism wrote: post #34
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

NATO is not just about Russia. To me, suggesting that Sweden is somehow more strategically important than Turkey is foreign policy illiterate. Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden, they are actively involved in being a buffer for conflicts in the Middle East, and they have an advanced military manufacturing capability that they have used to supply Ukraine and others with military drones. They also have su…

> NATO is not just about Russia.

Not only, but for the most part....It's about Russia.

> Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden

On the other hand Sweden and Finland at 2% GDP has a similar defense budget to Turkey. Money does not a military make, but "30x the size" is only counting manpower and not much else. Modern fighter aircraft is around a factor 2x rather than 30x, for example.

> a buffer for conflicts in the Middle East > advanced military manufacturing capability > partnerships with affiliates throughout MENA

These are all very important.

> "soft" cultural, christian, western centrism (calling things racism is taboo on HN so I will refrain).

It's perhaps easier to look at democracy and press-freedom indices then, to see why Turkey isn't like the others. Perhaps that's what you meant? The problem is that undemocratic/authoritarian states tend to be stable, until they suddenly aren't. NATO is supposed to be a partnership of democracies (It's a prerequisite for applying!) so it's safe to say that being not-a-democracy isn't popular once in the alliance either.

So sure, NATO is a defense mechanism for what some would call western (that is: secular, liberal, ...) democracy. That indeed does touch on culture and religion, but only superficially. Turkey has long been the champion of secularism in the area, and obviosuly everyone in NATO (and elsewhere) hopes that will remain the case, hence one is reluctant to push Turkey away too.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#125

Post by cortesoft »

ddalex wrote: post #117
lazyjones wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia demanded a neutral (not NATO-affiliated) Ukraine as one of their peace conditions.

Who the fuck cares what Russia demands. Do you ask your neighbor to approve your friend list ? Russia thought it could force the issue, and has had its ass handed back to them .

> Do you ask your neighbor to approve your friend list?

Well, if my neighbor had nukes pointed at my house, I might at least care what they thought.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#128

Post by drexlspivey »

tuukkah wrote: post #115
lazyjones wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia demanded a neutral (not NATO-affiliated) Ukraine as one of their peace conditions.

Such a demand is pretty clearly impossible to accept as a peace condition as it would just expose Ukraine to more Russian coercion in the future. Russia also demanded a categorical end to NATO expansion including in Sweden and Finland.

Says who? Reports on the peace deal were that Ukraine had agreed to this point. Also “We might get invaded/bombed in the future” is a strictly better outcome than “we are being bombed right now”

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#129

Post by numeric83 »

qiskit wrote: post #45
jahnu wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Republic of India definitely does not have the queen as head of state, ceremonial or otherwise.

India is the most independent amongst the vassals. But it's not a fully independent nation like the US, russia, china or even north korea. No truly independent nation would be part of the commonwealth of nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations Leaders • Head Queen Elizabeth II • Secretary-General The Baroness Scotland of Asthal • Chair-in-Office Boris Johnson

What are you smoking? Pass it around please!

India is a _republic_ with a president as its head of state. Maybe look into the history of India post-WW2. The Commonwealth of Nations is a _loose_ grouping of independent nations. Not all of which actually had/have any historical association with the United Kingdom.

> No truly independent nation would be part of the commonwealth of nations

In that case no truly independent nation should be a part of the United Nations. The UN has more "power" over its members than the Commonwealth.

You are making yourself look very foolish.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#130

Post by notorandit »

fabian2k wrote: post #65

If you have a neighbour that invades sovereign countries, it makes sense to seek strong allies. This is a direct result of Russia invading Ukraine, it doesn't matter how much Russia complains now.

Sweden doesn't neighbour with Russia. Only Finland and Norway!
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