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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#61

Post by ericmay »

arroz wrote: post #52
ericmay wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, and also Turkey (similar to when people argued that Hungary or Croatia would object) would be kicked out of NATO before Sweden and Finland would be prevented from joining. "But how would they do that? There's no process.. etc." They can just take a vote and then that's that. Likely Turkey will get some appeasement concessions, but there's no serious risk here.

Considering turkey controls the Black Sea, I doubt they would be kicked out At the same time, I don’t think they would say no anyway

They'd definitely be kicked out at this point if push came to shove. No doubt about that. There's no value in a member who doesn't cooperate. Both Finland and Sweden are very much aligned with the rest of NATO and if member states object to them joining you basically set the precedent that one member state (that's not the US/UK) can hold the group hostage. There's no way that would be tolerated, regardless of the strategic importance of Turkey.

To your point, they won't say no anyway. All the speculation is, I think, just circus.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#62

Post by SkyMarshal »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #10
vr46 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything has a price

The problem may very well be that Putin has bought off or compromised Erdogan in some form. Then there is no price high enough.

I doubt it, the Turks have been one of Ukraine’s strongest supporters, sending Bayraktar drones, closing their airspace to Russian flights, and closing the entrance to the Black Sea from the Mediterranean to Russian warships (all warships tbf). They’re no friend of Russia.

This appears to just be about Sweden and Finland’s support for the Kurds, some of who are in Iraq and some in Turkey. Turkey doesn’t want them forming a new and potentially hostile nation on its border, and doesn’t want any support for that from within NATO.

Unfortunately for the Kurds they’re probably about to get thrown under the bus, since Finland and Sweden are now more concerned about the much larger, aggressive, unstable, nuclear-armed rogue state on their own border.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#63

Post by whimsicalism »

giorgosts wrote: post #54
whimsicalism wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is not just about Russia. To me, suggesting that Sweden is somehow more strategically important than Turkey is foreign policy illiterate. Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden, they are actively involved in being a buffer for conflicts in the Middle East, and they have an advanced military manufacturing capability that they have used to supply Ukraine and others with military drones. They also have su…

They also occupy with 40000 soldiers one third of Cyprus, an EU country, thus essentially European territory.

And Greece stations troops in Cyprus as well after illegally invading them.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#64

Post by tablespoon »

m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

> But turks said no.

No. If the Turks actually said "no," they wouldn't be making demands:

https://www.dw.com/en/nato-turkey-outlines-demands-on-finlan...:

> Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu on Sunday outlined demands for Finland and Sweden which seek membership in NATO in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

> Speaking with Turkish reporters after a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Berlin, he said that Sweden and Finland must stop supporting terrorists in their countries, provide clear security guarantees and lift export bans on Turkey.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#66

Post by frozencell »

qiskit wrote: post #28
belltaco wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country or countries is India a vassal of?

India is still part of the british empire/commonwealth. They gained independence and left the british empire. A few years later, they rejoined it. They actually claim the british queen as their head of state - even if it is ceremonial only.

Yes and British is the vassal of Normandy

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#67

Post by formerly_proven »

kome wrote: post #37
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

No post body was provided.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#68

Post by whimsicalism »

ericmay wrote: post #56
whimsicalism wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is not just about Russia. To me, suggesting that Sweden is somehow more strategically important than Turkey is foreign policy illiterate. Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden, they are actively involved in being a buffer for conflicts in the Middle East, and they have an advanced military manufacturing capability that they have used to supply Ukraine and others with military drones. They also have su…

Yes but it's not just about military size, it's about cooperation. There's no point in having a military that's 30x the size of another one if they don't really cooperate with you. > calling things racism is taboo on HN so I will refrain In this case it's because it's just wrong. Sweden is by and large a peaceful, democratic, liberal democracy that has free markets and cooperates with NATO member states on a variety…

> there's absolutely no reason for Turkey to object over Sweden joining NATO in the first place

This is disingenuous. The YPG question is not "no reason" for Turkey. (I disagree about the reason, but it is still an actual concern for the Turkish government).

> if they don't really cooperate with you.

Turkey absolutely cooperated extensively with the US & NATO. Militarily, much more so than Sweden does.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#69

Post by tut-urut-utut »

tablespoon wrote: post #64
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

> But turks said no. No. If the Turks actually said "no," they wouldn't be making demands: https://www.dw.com/en/nato-turkey-outlines-demands-on-finlan... : > Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu on Sunday outlined demands for Finland and Sweden which seek membership in NATO in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. > Speaking with Turkish reporters after a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Berlin, he sai…

From the Turkish perspective, why would they allow someone who supports their enemies to join the alliance?

I guess both Swedish and Finnish government would both need to swallow a few frogs to comply with these requirements.

At least, they won't be able to maintain a moral high horse over Turkey any more after complying.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#70

Post by [deleted] »

ericmay wrote: post #61
arroz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering turkey controls the Black Sea, I doubt they would be kicked out At the same time, I don’t think they would say no anyway

They'd definitely be kicked out at this point if push came to shove. No doubt about that. There's no value in a member who doesn't cooperate. Both Finland and Sweden are very much aligned with the rest of NATO and if member states object to them joining you basically set the precedent that one member state (that's not the US/UK) can hold the group hostage. There's no way that would be tolerated, regardless of the str…

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