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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#51

Post by tablespoon »

martythemaniak wrote: post #4
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

> If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

Turkey controls the Dardanelles Strait.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#52

Post by arroz »

ericmay wrote: post #41
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Nah, and also Turkey (similar to when people argued that Hungary or Croatia would object) would be kicked out of NATO before Sweden and Finland would be prevented from joining. "But how would they do that? There's no process.. etc." They can just take a vote and then that's that. Likely Turkey will get some appeasement concessions, but there's no serious risk here.

Considering turkey controls the Black Sea, I doubt they would be kicked out

At the same time, I don’t think they would say no anyway

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#53

Post by ddalex »

qiskit wrote: post #18

Sweden was an unofficial NATO member anyways. Everybody knew this. They just didn't officially join in order to pretend to be a 'neutral' actor on the world stage, but anyone with a brain should know whose side they are on. In the modern world, there are only 4 independent states - US, china, russia and north korea. Everyone else is a vassal to some degree or another.

No post body was provided.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#54

Post by giorgosts »

whimsicalism wrote: post #34
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

NATO is not just about Russia. To me, suggesting that Sweden is somehow more strategically important than Turkey is foreign policy illiterate. Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden, they are actively involved in being a buffer for conflicts in the Middle East, and they have an advanced military manufacturing capability that they have used to supply Ukraine and others with military drones. They also have su…

They also occupy with 40000 soldiers one third of Cyprus, an EU country, thus essentially European territory.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#55

Post by grapeskin »

martythemaniak wrote: post #4
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

Sweden has about zero chance of ever going against American/western Europe, short of having a puppet regime instated by Russia.

Turkey would have zero reason to be pro-west in any way without NATO. They've basically been the one fairly stable Muslim-majority, non-oil dictatorship in the Middle East for decades now and it's much better to keep them as a lukewarm ally than have them be an outright enemy.

Vietnam is in a similar position. They're not exactly friends with the US, but the fact they have more motivation to be anti-China than anti-US is a good reason to not antagonize them. They're a strong antagonist against the US's enemies more than they are a full-on ally of the US, and that's a perfectly fine partnership to have.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#56

Post by ericmay »

whimsicalism wrote: post #34
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

NATO is not just about Russia. To me, suggesting that Sweden is somehow more strategically important than Turkey is foreign policy illiterate. Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden, they are actively involved in being a buffer for conflicts in the Middle East, and they have an advanced military manufacturing capability that they have used to supply Ukraine and others with military drones. They also have su…

Yes but it's not just about military size, it's about cooperation. There's no point in having a military that's 30x the size of another one if they don't really cooperate with you.

> calling things racism is taboo on HN so I will refrain

In this case it's because it's just wrong. Sweden is by and large a peaceful, democratic, liberal democracy that has free markets and cooperates with NATO member states on a variety of areas. In other words, the interests and values are very closely aligned. The reason we would have Turkey "out" here is because of a misalignment of values - i.e. Turkey is (or would in this case) diverge from the shared interests of the majority of NATO members. I mean, to point this out from the start there's absolutely no reason for Turkey to object over Sweden joining NATO in the first place. The very act of that objection is a divergence from the rest of the group's shared values.

But this is also mostly a nothing-burger because Turkey's public messaging is different from its private messaging. Erdogan will get an internationally inconsequential bone for domestic audiences and will happily vote Sweden (and Finland) in to NATO.

NATO wouldn't do this without having all the members already in agreement with expansion. That's how things work at this level.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#57

Post by whimsicalism »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38
whimsicalism wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound like you know what you are talking about and I have no idea what an "SS-4" is.

> doesn't sound like you know what you are talking about Okay? > no idea what an "SS-4" is Sorry, pre coffee. S-400.

okay how would Turkey's s400 purchase be an article 8 violation?

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#58

Post by praptak »

kome wrote: post #37
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

You know what country also lies next to Russia? Ukraine. Maybe ask them what they think of using diplomacy here.

What kind of de-escalation is possible when it's Russia attacking the Ukrainian territory? Also it's not like RF can be trusted to stick to agreements, so what's the point in talks?

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#59

Post by MisterBastahrd »

kome wrote: post #37
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

If you don't want a hegemonic superpower to gain additional power through protection rackets, then don't invade sovereign nations because you have cancer and want to feel better about yourself.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#60

Post by _kbh_ »

kome wrote: post #37
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

The de-escalation is simple, Russia leaves all parts of Ukraine that is has occupied since 2014. It return they stop losing troops and armour at a rate which will end their armies existence entirely before the end of the year.
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