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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#81

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

qiskit wrote: post #18

Sweden was an unofficial NATO member anyways. Everybody knew this. They just didn't officially join in order to pretend to be a 'neutral' actor on the world stage, but anyone with a brain should know whose side they are on. In the modern world, there are only 4 independent states - US, china, russia and north korea. Everyone else is a vassal to some degree or another.

This seems clearly false for any useful concept of vassaldom. Which of those states dictates the foreign and domestic policies of India, or Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, or Nigeria, or...

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#82

Post by alkonaut »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #69
tablespoon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But turks said no. No. If the Turks actually said "no," they wouldn't be making demands: https://www.dw.com/en/nato-turkey-outlines-demands-on-finlan... : > Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu on Sunday outlined demands for Finland and Sweden which seek membership in NATO in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. > Speaking with Turkish reporters after a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Berlin, he sai…

From the Turkish perspective, why would they allow someone who supports their enemies to join the alliance? I guess both Swedish and Finnish government would both need to swallow a few frogs to comply with these requirements. At least, they won't be able to maintain a moral high horse over Turkey any more after complying.

> From the Turkish perspective, why would they allow someone who supports their enemies to join the alliance?

This makes it sound like Sweden does something that other NATO members don't. That's not the case. Sweden supports the SDC in syria, which supports the YPG, which is connected to the PKK. And this is controversial in several of the countries that do this, including the US.

While it's true that it's Sweden applying for membership and not anyone else, the logical thing for Turkey to do here is to try to pressure the whole alliance to adopt some policy change (such as a terror clasification for YPG, and/or no more aid to SDC and connected groups).

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#83

Post by giorgosts »

whimsicalism wrote: post #63
giorgosts wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also occupy with 40000 soldiers one third of Cyprus, an EU country, thus essentially European territory.

And Greece stations troops in Cyprus as well after illegally invading them.

Enough of the lying propaganda. North Cyprus is by the accession treaties EU territory that the Republic of Cyprus cannot effectively control due to the illegally occupying Turkish troops. Much like the Russian controlled parts of Ukraine.

Numbers speak by themselves: 2000 troops in the South, 40000 troops in the occupied North.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#84

Post by throw-nocoiner »

The way Sweden and Finland admission process unfolded makes a complete mockery of democracy

Rushed, decided behind closed doors, by a small clique of elites, without any semblance of democratic mandate, unconstitutional, no real public debate, no referendum, all in an atmosphere of McCarthy-like media frenzy. Any nuance is instantly brushed aside as Putin's propaganda

The polls put the support at ~52% in Sweden and ~61% in Finland. That means 48% and 39% of the people are neutral or against. This mass of people have no representation in mass media, and no major political party to back them. This void will be filled, probably by some outlier parties, possibly extremists. It's a recipe for a disaster

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#85

Post by bayesian_horse »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #62
bayesian_horse wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem may very well be that Putin has bought off or compromised Erdogan in some form. Then there is no price high enough.

I doubt it, the Turks have been one of Ukraine’s strongest supporters, sending Bayraktar drones, closing their airspace to Russian flights, and closing the entrance to the Black Sea from the Mediterranean to Russian warships (all warships tbf). They’re no friend of Russia. This appears to just be about Sweden and Finland’s support for the Kurds, some of who are in Iraq and some in Turkey. Turkey doesn’t want them for…

I think you are missing a lot of the military cooperation between Russia and Turkey. Turkey is buying weapons from Russia. Also, Erdogan stopped delivering the tank-busting missiles for the TB2 drone, which is a big deal. There really is no replacement. The Hellfire missile is too heavy and the Americans now have delivered unguided rockets retrofitted with a laser-seeking head but which can't bust tanks...

So, Turkey and Russia might not exactly be friends. Erdogan and Putin is another topic.

Also, be wary of what Erdogan and his people say. He's about as trustworthy as Putin, and when he calls those organizations "Terrorists" or that Sweden and Finland support them, then that's actually quite far from the truth and he wants something much less palatable.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#86

Post by qiskit »

vinay427 wrote: post #40
qiskit wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is still part of the british empire/commonwealth. They gained independence and left the british empire. A few years later, they rejoined it. They actually claim the british queen as their head of state - even if it is ceremonial only.

This is false. There is a distinction between the Commonwealth in the broader cultural sense (Commonwealth Games, etc.) and the Commonwealth realm. The former regions in the British Empire which are now republics, such as India and those in Africa, are not in the Commonwealth realm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm

> This is false. There is a distinction between the Commonwealth in the broader cultural sense (Commonwealth Games, etc.) and the Commonwealth realm.

Look a map of the british empire and see which it resembles - commonwealth realm or the commonwealth? The commonwealth was originally called the british commonwealth and was the successor of the british empire. It was actually an nehru I believe who asked the named be changed from british commonwealth to commonwealth as a face-saving gesture.

Commonwealth realm are the british descendent nations - canada, australia, etc. Commonwealth is the british empire - descendents nations + colonized nations like india.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#87

Post by tut-urut-utut »

tablespoon wrote: post #20
qiskit wrote: post #18

Sweden was an unofficial NATO member anyways. Everybody knew this. They just didn't officially join in order to pretend to be a 'neutral' actor on the world stage, but anyone with a brain should know whose side they are on. In the modern world, there are only 4 independent states - US, china, russia and north korea. Everyone else is a vassal to some degree or another.

> In the modern world, there are only 4 independent states - US, china, russia and north korea. Everyone else is a vassal to some degree or another. Wut? North Korea is the vassalist vassal that ever vassaled. Russia might be getting there.

North Korea is more independent than any European country except Russia.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#88

Post by hh3k0 »

formerly_proven wrote: post #67
kome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

Quoted post unavailable.

He is likely worried that Ukraine's fierce resistance to the genocide of her people will cause him mild inconveniences. Of course, admitting that would make him look bad so he tries to warp it into some sort of moral principle. I've seen it an awfully lot recently and I think it is pathetic.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#89

Post by tablespoon »

qiskit wrote: post #49
jitl wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

North Korea is a China vassal in the same way any random dictatorship in South America is probably a US vassal. China has huge influence on NK as their largest economic partner.

No. South korea is a vassal. A vassal of the US. It has american troops occupying it. North korea is opposite of what south korea is. They have no foreign troop occupying it. And if north korea was a chinese vassal, they wouldn't have nuclear weapons. It's funny how people want to ignore the obvious.

> South korea is a vassal. A vassal of the US. It has american troops occupying it. North korea is opposite of what south korea is. They have no foreign troop occupying it.

That's one of your many misunderstandings. The presence of troops does not imply an occupation. If you mistakenly think it does, then (among other things) you'll be unable to perceive alliances.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#90

Post by bayesian_horse »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #19
bayesian_horse wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But NATO can't choose because getting rid of a prior member of an alliance undermines the very idea and value of the alliance.

> getting rid of a prior member of an alliance undermines the very idea and value of the alliance Not really. It does if one does this after they’re invaded, to evade mutual defence commitments. But acknowledging that there are no longer shared values and providing an off ramp is perfectly fine. Strengthening, even, as it shows heightened resolve to take the commitment seriously.

If any member gets booted out because of ideological differences, no matter the circumstances, other members will necessarily fear the same. This is extremely hard to avoid...
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