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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

presidentti.fi

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#821

Post by trasz »

denton-scratch wrote: post #710
therouwboat wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants war, but we also don't want to be part of Russia. Putin can de-escalate this anytime and "losing" doesnt make him seem any worse than starting a war, killing tens of thousands and making millions flee their homes.

> Putin can de-escalate this anytime I wish I believed that. His credibility depends entirely on his ability to threaten (to poison his opponents, to flatten cities). He's a strong man, and he can't afford to be seen to back down. Here's the only off-ramp I can see working: "Mr. Putin, you can keep your yachts and your offshore wealth; you won't be pursued for warcrimes. But you must exile yourself from Russia, and n…

How about giving off-ramp in the shape of proper prize for Putin’s head?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#822

Post by stuff4ben »

praptak wrote: post #235
matsemann wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Sweden got attacked, most Norwegians would want to help them somehow, ending up dragging NATO into the ordeal anyways, is my thought.

Most Poles want to help Ukraine somehow and we didn't drag NATO into the conflict. Sweden would probably get stronger support for other reasons, like being perceived as an established democratic western country.

That's because NATO can't join the conflict.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#823

Post by mijoharas »

Borrible wrote: post #603
baq wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[insert 'select all squares with finnish snipers' meme] Anyway, Putin says a lot of things. He doesn't see a friend in anyone, never has, never will. An enemy is just a small downgrade from status quo. > I guess, the russians are finnished. Da.

Just so the audience knows what we're talking 'bout, when we're talking 'bout Finnish soldiers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unknown_Soldier_(2017_film... I'm starting to feel sorry for russia. But it earned it. And I couldn't care less what Putin and his cronies fantasize. “We cannot negotiate with people who say what's mine is mine and what's yours is negotiable."…

Don't forget about Simo Häyhä[0] (most sniper kills of anyone ever I believe)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#824

Post by ethbr0 »

skissane wrote: post #609
ethbr0 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nukes from America Treaty Obligation Article 5 is the shield that drastically decreases the amount of nuclear weapons European nations need to deploy, because USSR / Russian inventories are balanced out by American inventories, if it comes to all-out war. Consequently, the world as a whole is a lot safer because {flight time Russia-US} >> {flight time Europe-Russia}, which allows for additional fail-safe guarantees o…

> Consequently, the world as a whole is a lot safer because {flight time Russia-US} >> {flight time Europe-Russia}, The US stations some of its nukes in Europe, so the flight time is less than you think. Also, it is widely believed that the US has an “understanding” with certain European countries that in extreme circumstances (aka World War III) the US will hand those nukes over to the host countries, and then the h…

US nuclear weapons in Europe are in a stored posture, and have substantial procedures required for their release to their host countries' air forces.

As far as I know, the US hasn't stationed M/IRBM or nuclear cruise missiles in Europe since the early-60s Jupiter MRBM [0] and GLCM [1] were withdrawn.

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/01/the-rea...

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109G_Ground_Launched_Cru...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#825

Post by trasz »

bell-cot wrote: post #718
piokoch wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ship has sailed for Russia already. USA will not tolerate obstruction by Germany, France or Hungary. Recent meeting about Ukraine support was hold in Ramstein and this place was chosen intentionally - to show who is the master of the show and who should sit and listen. By attacking Ukraine Russia wanted to "push" NATO away from its borders, but it all went backwards - now they will have a new, 1300 km long border…

> In fact in case of military conflict [St.] Petersburg is lost, can be attacked from the West and the North by land and covered by long range rocket artillery... Ah...if I recall, the Germans - with a very large, experienced, and well-equipped army, at the time - assumed that St. Petersburg could be taken fairly easily back in 1941. That turned out not to be the case.

Back then Russians had the will to fight. They knew what they were fighting for. Nowadays very few would want to fight for another oligarchs yacht.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#826

Post by tsimionescu »

martindbp wrote: post #762
tsimionescu wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is how the US responded to the Solomon Islands military treaty with China (emphasis mine): > If steps are taken to establish a de facto permanent military presence, power-projection capabilities, or a military installation, the delegation noted that the United States would then have significant concerns and respond accordingly . Note that the Solomon Islands is also a sovereign nation, and that it is > 10,000km…

I don't know the situation, but if Solomon Islands are doing this of their own accord, and that's what their population wants then I'm not against that. But then again I'm not American. I understand that there are cases, like with the Cuba Crisis, where the fear was warranted. The Soviet's had a history of invading and occupying other nations. China is mainly a threat to Taiwan, and perhaps historically to Vietnam, b…

> I don't know the situation, but if Solomon Islands are doing this of their own accord, and that's what their population wants then I'm not against that.

You may not be against that, but my point was that this is mostly not how world leaders think. Note that it's not just the US - Australia, New Zealand, and I'm sure other countries in the area also came out strongly against this, and similarly explained that it affects their security.

Of course, unlike Russia, they didn't literally illegally and unacceptably invade the Solomon Islands. However, if China were to participate in a revolution-coup combo (as Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine were doing 2 weeks before revolutionaries forced Yanukovich out [0][1]); and then a pro-Chinese leader (even one with popular support) started being armed by the Chinese government, and holding joint military excercises defending from an Australian invasion [2]; then the situation would perhaps change.

It's important to note not just what is morally right and wrong, but also what are the established rules of the world. It's great to fight against those rules as much as you can (and US citizens have more power to change this than any other people on Earth, as the voters in the most powerful country in history which is at least partly democratic), when they are unjust, but that doesn't mean you get to ignore them while they are in place.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 (conversation transcript published on 7 feb 2014)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-2 (forced out by protesters on 21-22 feb 2014)

[2] https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/ukraine-h...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#827

Post by trasz »

DocTomoe wrote: post #405
Archelaos wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is a devensive alliance. It is no threat for a peaceful Russia at all. All else is propaganda. A really democratic Russia may even join NATO some day. (As Western Germany did ten years after the Nazis.)

> NATO is a devensive alliance. I think Serbs may disagree on that. In the end, NATO is the US and it's dependent vassal states. With neighbors like these, I can sympathize with Russia not being too comfortable.

Serbs had a choice - they could have avoided starting a genocide, for example.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#828

Post by bonzini »

nradov wrote: post #615
fallingknife wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is what Hungary gains from splitting with the rest of the EU and NATO to help Russia. Doesn't seem beneficial to them.

It's more about Hungarian domestic politics. The Orban administration has alienated much of the EU leadership, and is (arguably) in violation of the EU treaties. So they're looking to Russia as a backup option, and as an implicit threat to the EU over having their funding cut off.

Hungary is by far a net receiver in the EU budget.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#829

Post by calf »

fsloth wrote: post #481
calf wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this point a lot but I don't understand it. I'm of both Taiwanese and Hong Kong ethnicity. The world has already seen what China did to Hong Kong's autonomy. But Chomsky's essays and lectures have helped me understand my old countries' political issues more clearly than many other sources, even when he isn't directly talking about Asia. So I don't understand the frequent assertion that Chomsky's arguments or hi…

Chomsky starts from the position that the general population is ignorant of history and politics and can be programmed by the elites to what ever worldview. He does not start from the position that an individual voter would have skin in the game, or understand the consequences of political and economic actions. Ukrainians feel in their guts their country is being invaded by an genocidal adversary. They are not driven…

Then will all respect I must disagree. I said that I am ethnically a Hong Konger. When China broke its UK treaty (effectively, a temporary neutralization treaty that granted autonomy to HK for a period of years), I also felt in my gut how horrible that was: it was cultural genocide, in my eyes. But at no point did I need to dismiss Chomsky's theories or find it invalid in scope. I have no problem pointing out how US and UK foreign policy escalated Chinese actions that harmed HK people's autonomy and oppressed young Hong Kongers' democratic party. And unfortunately I have to point out that if anyone objects to such a comparison, that the similarity is obviously not the same in magnitude compared to an international war, but the moral philosophy and political dynamics is a proper analog, just on different scales the way triangles are similar but have different magnitudes. I know this may not fully explain why I disagree with you in Chomsky's validity, but this is at least to suggest to you that someone in analogous situation may have a valid reason for a different assessment of Chomsky, specifically due to how one interprets his leftist ideas.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#830

Post by bonzini »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #758
rich_sasha wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll remind you that Russia is a democracy and Putin is a democratically elected leader, as much as Biden is. And people in the USA have much less trust for the democratic process than Russians at the moment. Erm... huh? You cannot, not in a million years, compare the democratic processes of US or EU states with what's going on in Russia. I'm not even sure where to start. How about this then: Russia's premier oppos…

Quoted post unavailable.

It's not okay to poison political opponents even if they are just much a piece of sh*t as the poisoner.

But if Navalny isn't okay, let's talk instead about Russia poisoning Yushchenko in 2004 with dioxin...

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