Finland will seek NATO membership immediately • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#201

Post by therouwboat » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:00 AM UTC

nonameking2026 wrote: post #108

sph wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

They can do a lot of things. None which are good for Russia but their leaders might perceive this as a direct threat to their sovereignty and take extreme measures. Either they stop this now or it's all over anyway. This is reckless - we need to start a path of de-escalation - give Putin an offramp. Get to back to calm waters. Then let diplomats do their little dances until there is a hopefully more reasonable people…

Nobody wants war, but we also don't want to be part of Russia. Putin can de-escalate this anytime and "losing" doesnt make him seem any worse than starting a war, killing tens of thousands and making millions flee their homes.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#202

Post by skissane » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:01 AM UTC

rocqua wrote: post #141

martimarkov wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can also be kicked out ;) Edit: Here is some thoughts one it: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/28337/on-what-g...

AFAIK kicking someone out of NATO is very difficult. Otherwise I suspect that about 5 years ago Turkey would have been at risk of being removed.

NATO has really benefited from having Turkey as a member in this war (which is essentially a proxy war between Russia and NATO)-Turkey exercised its right to close the Bosporus to military ships not based there, which prevents Russia from reinforcing its Black Sea fleet. An ex-NATO Turkey might have taken Russia’s side and left the straits open. Closing them disadvantaged Russia far more than anyone else, since Ukraine really doesn’t have a navy any more, and other major naval powers were never likely to directly intervene on Ukraine’s side.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#203

Post by RandomLensman » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:01 AM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #146

throw-ru-938 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Assange affair is certainly disgusting, but does the US have widespread political persecution the way Russia does?

Shall we really rattle off a list of political persecution in the USA? Because, honestly, you can't be so ignorant .. YES: The WEST DOES have political persecution the way Russia does. There is, literally, NO DIFFERENCE. Of course, we don't have evidence of a thousand Russian secret torture sites, like we do for the CIA (thanks Julian, thanks Edward), so there is some validity to the position that in fact the Wests'…

This is about picking a side. Luckily, people are free to move to the side they prefer (somehow Russia does not seem as popular as the "West"...).

If you prefer the Russian system - move there. If you are totally indifferent, maybe make a coin toss.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#204

Post by trash8435798 » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:01 AM UTC

ssl232 wrote: post #99

phoe-krk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former USSR states in Eastern Europe have until now (or until the early 2000s NATO expansion at least) served as a half-decent buffer zone between the West and Russia, and we've had peace. I think you should go and tell Ukrainian people that their country is a buffer zone meant to act as a burnt ground, and they are not allowed to work towards joining the alliances and economic systems that they want to join in…

> I think you should go and tell Ukrainian people that their country is a buffer zone meant to act as a burnt ground, and they are not allowed to work towards joining the alliances and economic systems that they want to join in order to better their livelihoods and stop facing the former-USSR-level of poverty. I didn't say we should dictate policy to Ukraine - they're a sovereign state like the rest of us. That doesn…

>I noted in my comment that there was actually peace in Eastern Europe before NATO expansion.

Yes, there was a peace and Eastern Europe suffered under Soviet Union. Of course former Soviet satellite states seek military alliance to prevent that from happening ever again. If you are American and nuclear war is all you are afraid of, then it might make some sense to oppose them (or now Finland and Sweden) joining NATO.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#205

Post by bitL » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:01 AM UTC

ngold wrote: post #19

kqr wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean there's that joke that the Apollo missions were the greatest scientific accomplishment by the Soviet Union.

That is rather apt. And mirroring Russian claims to disarm nazis in Ukraine and take over the government in 3 days. Only to get sanctioned into economic doom, and have Ukraine forever supplied with the teeth of all western nations. It did not work out so well. We are all rooting for spinal cancer.

If there is a nuclear war because of this mess in the near future, then we will all see how did this work out for everyone on this planet. If you pressure a weakened nuclear power into a corner, what will they have left? Western countries operate under a false assumption that oligarchs/rich call the shots in Russia while it's the power/security forces who do, keeping oligarchs on a short leash. From that point of view, it's not only conceivable Finland would be attacked before joining NATO, but that this would escalate to an all-out-war with nukes.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#206

Post by klausjensen » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:02 AM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #195

klausjensen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deflection. Neighbours of Russia want to join NATO to prevent Russia invading them. And for good reason. No "mysterious" CIA-manipulation needed.

Quoted post unavailable.

Again, you are just deflecting, trying to distract from the core: The neighbours of Russia do not want to be invaded by Russia, so they join NATO.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#207

Post by stoltzmann » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:02 AM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #198

stoltzmann wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a single fact to back up your accusation of CIA meddling with NATO membership? Your link does not prove that. Also, you have not provided any sources on the dismissal of reasons for joining NATO. Please do link to them if you have any evidence. As is, it looks like you're parroting anti-NATO propaganda - it seems you're acting in bad faith. Are you paid for by the Russians?

The existence of GLADIO is all the evidence one needs. Its purpose is to ensure any and all impediments to the expansion of NATO are removed. The "Ma' Russians!" claim is not worth responding to, but I'm an Australian, have lived for decades in the US and in Eastern Europe, and I no longer play the nationalist game. I've been following the Wests' war crimes and crimes against humanity since 9/11, which has led me to…

That does not prove your accusation that CIA was meddling in countries that willingly asked to join NATO because they did not want to get invaded by Russia.

Also, you're mischaracterizing the purpose of Operation Gladio.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#208

Post by jacquesm » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:02 AM UTC

dmos62 wrote: post #157

serpix wrote: post #109

As a Finnish citizen, reservist this has been a very emotional spring. Both of my grandfathers were in the war with Russia. Both of my grandmothers had to leave and burn their homes in the areas annexed by Russia. Twice. I am 100% for Nato.

Why did your family burn its homes as they were leaving? To deny it to Russian (or collaborator) settlers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#209

Post by sph » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:03 AM UTC

srg0 wrote: post #101

sph wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

Turkey is a NATO member, but it didn't join the international sanctions.

They're certainly not Russia-aligned. They've never liked each other, and Turkey has been crucial in strengthening Ukraine's defense with their Bayraktars.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#210

Post by cycomanic » Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:04 AM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #135

mrep wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So even if NATO completely surrounded Russia, do you think any of said war crimes would actually be committed against Russia directly because if so I want whatever you're smoking. They have 6000 nukes and US + EU combined have 25 times the GDP of Russia. We have everything to lose and practically nothing to gain from attacking Russias worthless economy.

Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built. But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes against humanity…

You didn't answer the previous posters question.

I actually am well aware of the crimes committed by NATO members (I would argue that they were not under NATO mandate though, except maybe Serbia, but that's a different argument). BTW the most atrocious crimes go back way more than 20 years. I also know that many western nations have been very nonchalant about violations of international law by their own allies, and I seriously hope that one of the outcomes of this crisis is that the Europeans in particular realize that to be believable you can't close your eyes just because it's your "friends".

All the above is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the motivation of the former eastern block countries is driven by a deep skepticism/fear of Russia and their politics of invading and repressing their neighbors. There is a reason why the Baltic states and Poland are the largest supporters of Ukraine, there is very strong opposition towards the Russian state, despite all countries having large Russian minorities.

Also with the (certainly justified) complaints about the "aggressive west", lets not act like Russia is some sort of innocent victim instead of being wannabe imperialists that are worse by pretty much any standard (and China is a completely different discussion).