We Can All Become Job Creators • Hacker News Board

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#51

Post by nordsieck » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 8:14 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #29

muhfuhkuh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you make a product and don't make any changes to it in several years, people will continue to buy your products anyway" Tell that to Microsoft. They sat stagnant on WinMo 6.x for nearly 5 years before rewriting and releasing Windows Phone 7. Their marketshare eroded to dust while iOS and Android (and, by that point, even Blackberry OS, Symbian, and WebOS) ran circles around it. So, yes, there is a shelf-life. Not…

Tell that to Microsoft. They sat stagnant on WinMo 6.x for nearly 5 years before rewriting and releasing Windows Phone 7. That highlights my point. Until the competition arrived, there was no real force driving them to continue working on it. The money was rolling in regardless of what they were doing to it. Microsoft could have went down to the unemployment line and set all of those people to work on the product, bu…

"Tech companies can wait for the best of the best. Why aren't those software companies hiring that guy who lost his manufacturing job for $9/hr instead? It is because they don't need to. They can wait for the one who is great at the job."

That's not true at all.

A crappy farm hand might harvest at 1/2 or 1/3 the rate of a great one.

A crappy developer will actively damage a project.

It is simply not possible to increase software development productivity by hiring lots of people who don't know what they're doing.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#52

Post by nostromo » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 8:15 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #3

We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's easy to create jobs -- e.g. I can go round breaking windows with rocks and create jobs for glaziers. But creating jobs that create wealth -- that is, to create an opportunity for someone else to join their labour with my capital in order to build something that someone wishes to pay for, thus enriching all three of us... well…

Your comment reminds me of my own personal frustration with our governance and current economy.

I have a modest sum of money in various forms. The central bank in the US is basically said to me, "stop saving!" because interest rates are so low and inflation is likely to be high in the future -- there's no point. Saving is out. (You think we would have learned something...)

So, let's look at possible investments. Real-estate? Maybe, but investment requirements for real-estate have gone up dramatically. In fact, I was recently told that if you're self-employed (aka creating jobs) for less than several years and looking for an investment property mortgage that you'll need to put down 50% to invest in property. So, I could find property to buy outright, but it seems that wouldn't being taking advantage of any real leverage.

Stocks? Sure, I have some stocks, but I'm not going to put all of my eggs in that basket after seeing 15 years of market swings and no real growth. (Sorry John Bogle, you may be wrong after all.)

So, I would like to put this money to work in some small way, but I have yet to see a way to actually do that (other than by starting a business, which is exactly what I did, but I'd like some diversity obviously). It makes you realize why more arcane investments like gold and bitcoin and startups are all very volatile, people are looking for something anything to invest in.

Fixing this stalemate is hard, but the government needs to find a way if they want money to come out from under the mattress and become productive again.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#53

Post by Goladus » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 8:40 PM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #44

Goladus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's more than wealth creation, though. People must also be paid fairly for the wealth created. Wealth creation is happening, the problem is that the rewards for it are all being skimmed away and those in the middle are being squeezed-- squeezed out of their homes, out of their cars, and out of their educations. The housing boom…

>>> Wealth creation is happening, the problem is that the rewards for it are all being skimmed away and those in the middle are being squeezed Those whose compensation is unfair usually run for another employer (that another employer sometimes being themselves). Money is simply a proxy for the value of the goods/services they produce for the society.

> Those whose compensation is unfair usually run for another employer

This doesn't happen efficiently, however. Moving upwards is risky and the consequences of a downward-adjustment (getting layed off) often include bankruptcy and financial ruin.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#54

Post by FD3SA » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 8:51 PM UTC

Unfortunately, the issue is not so simple. The the labor market is under assault from every front. Illegal immigration and offshoring depress skilled labor wages, while at the same time robotics and software progress to automate as many skilled jobs as possible. Laborers turn to college degrees, which burden them with massive student loans, only to graduate with unimproved employment prospects due to the saturation of the market with higher ed degrees. Meanwhile, businesses have strong incentive to replace labor (human) with capital(machine), as the latter is far cheaper and does not require health insurance, benefits, or pension plans. This also helps businesses improve profit margins significantly.

Thus, we have our scenario: corporate profitability increasing in tandem with structural unemployment. Consolidation of capital to a few major winners, and debt and unemployment for the losers.

There are few ways out of this mess, and none of them can occur with "business as usual" policies.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#55

Post by seagreen » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 9:02 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #49

prostoalex wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark, they tax fatty foods to discourage them. In the States, we tax payroll.

Thats a nice saying and I hate to ruin it but believe me most people in Denmark knows that the tax on fatty foods is just an excuse to bring in more money to the government. I mean are you really going to buy less meat because it went up 5%?

You might not, and I might not, but some people will. Like a lot of things in modern society it's all about the margins. The effects of such a small increase aren't flashy or obvious, but they're still real.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#56

Post by qdog » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 9:08 PM UTC

9999 wrote: post #31

hugh3 wrote: post #3

We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's easy to create jobs -- e.g. I can go round breaking windows with rocks and create jobs for glaziers. But creating jobs that create wealth -- that is, to create an opportunity for someone else to join their labour with my capital in order to build something that someone wishes to pay for, thus enriching all three of us... well…

Hold your horses. Tell us more about this rock throwing, window breaking, glass making job creation plan of yours. This has been the most viable job creation plan I've heard of to date.

s/window/wealth holder's window/

It is often argued that the 'breaking windows' scenario is a fallacy because the capital redirected to fix the window would be used for something more productive, which is only true assuming a company or individual is utilizing this excess capital. So, you have to break windows where people are holding capital, ie: the owner of the window is wealthy. If you break a window at the local pizza joint that is barely breaking even, you probably get a negative return (unless the new window is somehow superior to the old window...).

People who are wealthy or think they are going to be wealthy don't really like this approach, obviously, but unlike an individual who benefits from holding assets, the economy requires a constant, sometimes increasing, flow of economic activity (you get paid, you pay for goods and services, your money keep circulating, etc.).

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#57

Post by mfringel » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 9:09 PM UTC

The term "Job Creator" is a clever-as-in-clever-bastard way of re-framing the discussion. "Job Creators" become their own privileged class of people who have the secret knowledge of how to Create Jobs. Also, the term "Creator" implies a certain deity-like status, as if only they have the power to create jobs from the void.

I much prefer "employer."

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#58

Post by AJ007 » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 9:14 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #3

We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's easy to create jobs -- e.g. I can go round breaking windows with rocks and create jobs for glaziers. But creating jobs that create wealth -- that is, to create an opportunity for someone else to join their labour with my capital in order to build something that someone wishes to pay for, thus enriching all three of us... well…

Thomas Friedman had a column in the NYTimes about a week ago. While I did not agree with the specific, this quote was gold:

"We cannot bail or tax-cut our way to prosperity. We can only, as Jobs understood, invent our way there."

Measuring GDP, inflation, deflation, the unemployment rate, all of these numbers are not a reflection of quality of life. Prosperity is a quality of life issue which is solely improved (or destroyed) through technological advancement.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#59

Post by anon808 » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 9:20 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #3

We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's easy to create jobs -- e.g. I can go round breaking windows with rocks and create jobs for glaziers. But creating jobs that create wealth -- that is, to create an opportunity for someone else to join their labour with my capital in order to build something that someone wishes to pay for, thus enriching all three of us... well…

s/wealth/value

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#60

Post by ticktock » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 9:26 PM UTC

ebiester wrote: post #48

randomdata wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, therein lies the problem I see. I do agree that anyone can become a great programmer. But, If everyone is a great programmer, a small subset will be even greater programmers and all of the companies will want to wait to hire them. There is, again, no drive to hire just anyone. I'm not certain there is any solution that can come from the top. However, hungry people always find a way. I do feel we'll eventually s…

Hungry people often don't find a way. Or rather, they sell drugs and rob houses. Or take those two minimum wage jobs and tell yourself "someday." I have seen very few people pull themselves up by their bootstraps, so to speak. And this isn't an easy gap to fulfill.

I believe he is referring to people hungry for knowledge.