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We Can All Become Job Creators

nytimes.com

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Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#41

Post by randomdata »

ebiester wrote: post #33
randomdata wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not about absolute values, it is about trends. There's no question the tech sector is small, relatively speaking, but agriculture and manufacturing jobs are shrinking while technology-based jobs are growing. For every job lost in agriculture and manufacturing, there is a new job in the tech industry. However, unless you are highly skilled, nobody will be interested in you. That is the problem. Farmers desperate…

So, then, how do we increase the supply of "great people?" I argue that there is a percentage in the agriculture, call center, and manufacturing industry, if given the six years of math and programming, could be top programmers. These same people would be motivated to do so, but have families to feed and mortgages to pay. We have potential supply. We have demand. How do we get from A to B?

Well, therein lies the problem I see. I do agree that anyone can become a great programmer. But, If everyone is a great programmer, a small subset will be even greater programmers and all of the companies will want to wait to hire them. There is, again, no drive to hire just anyone.

I'm not certain there is any solution that can come from the top. However, hungry people always find a way. I do feel we'll eventually see some big shifts in the employment structure to deal with the problem, started from the bottom. It is not going to happen overnight though.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#42

Post by Goladus »

pitdesi wrote: post #28
hugh3 wrote: post #3

We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's easy to create jobs -- e.g. I can go round breaking windows with rocks and create jobs for glaziers. But creating jobs that create wealth -- that is, to create an opportunity for someone else to join their labour with my capital in order to build something that someone wishes to pay for, thus enriching all three of us... well…

Easier access to credit is a huge detriment to small businesses, in ways that we (startup-folks) don't think about... One example - the typical small business restaurant. It is a VERY different businesses than the startups that we create. You can't create a restaurant without any money, for example... You can bootstrap an online business by not paying yourself, but when you have to pay for a building and kitchen etc,…

> A question arises in my mind though, shouldn't I just pay $4 for a coffee at an actual small business?

Sure, assuming you actually prefer the coffee from the small business. Lots of people prefer Starbucks coffee.

The idea of big businesses funding local competition does seem absurd from a competitive standpoint-- but I think it could actually work out really well. If Starbucks still has the better coffee they will still get more business, meanwhile a healthier local economy will mean a bigger market for Starbucks. Especially vs. Dunkin Donuts or McDonalds, which currently beat Starbucks in lower-income markets.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#43

Post by pcowans »

randomdata wrote: post #41
ebiester wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, then, how do we increase the supply of "great people?" I argue that there is a percentage in the agriculture, call center, and manufacturing industry, if given the six years of math and programming, could be top programmers. These same people would be motivated to do so, but have families to feed and mortgages to pay. We have potential supply. We have demand. How do we get from A to B?

Well, therein lies the problem I see. I do agree that anyone can become a great programmer. But, If everyone is a great programmer, a small subset will be even greater programmers and all of the companies will want to wait to hire them. There is, again, no drive to hire just anyone. I'm not certain there is any solution that can come from the top. However, hungry people always find a way. I do feel we'll eventually s…

Then we'll do more programming - I'm sure we've not run out of problems that can be solved through software.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#44

Post by prostoalex »

Goladus wrote: post #40
hugh3 wrote: post #3

We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's easy to create jobs -- e.g. I can go round breaking windows with rocks and create jobs for glaziers. But creating jobs that create wealth -- that is, to create an opportunity for someone else to join their labour with my capital in order to build something that someone wishes to pay for, thus enriching all three of us... well…

> We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's more than wealth creation, though. People must also be paid fairly for the wealth created. Wealth creation is happening, the problem is that the rewards for it are all being skimmed away and those in the middle are being squeezed-- squeezed out of their homes, out of their cars, and out of their educations. The housing boom…

>>> Wealth creation is happening, the problem is that the rewards for it are all being skimmed away and those in the middle are being squeezed

Those whose compensation is unfair usually run for another employer (that another employer sometimes being themselves). Money is simply a proxy for the value of the goods/services they produce for the society.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#45

Post by prostoalex »

OstiaAntica wrote: post #19
redwood wrote: post #2

Interesting, glad to see, at the very least, a bit of patriotism returning to the idea of jobs. In big companies the push to outsource is strong and political correctness prevents much dissent. Would still like to see a government regulation help as well: e.g. perhaps companies with more employees per profit would have a tax incentive and companies with fewer employees per profit would have a penalty. This way you es…

Well, currently the government punishes companies that hire employees-- all sorts of payroll, worker's comp, and unemployment taxes, and also workplace legal liability that is extreme in the U.S. To the degree there is already a lot of central planning in U.S. labor markets, the government actively works against employment.

In Denmark, they tax fatty foods to discourage them. In the States, we tax payroll.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#46

Post by tomjen3 »

9999 wrote: post #31
hugh3 wrote: post #3

We need to stop talking about "job creation" and start talking about "wealth creation". It's easy to create jobs -- e.g. I can go round breaking windows with rocks and create jobs for glaziers. But creating jobs that create wealth -- that is, to create an opportunity for someone else to join their labour with my capital in order to build something that someone wishes to pay for, thus enriching all three of us... well…

Hold your horses. Tell us more about this rock throwing, window breaking, glass making job creation plan of yours. This has been the most viable job creation plan I've heard of to date.

His plan is good but it only creates a limited amount of jobs and it is not especially environmentally friendly.

My plan will create at least an order of magnitude more jobs, jobs for those with no education, jobs for the illiterate, the literate etc.

It is simple to. Nothing needs to be broken.

All you have to do is to outlaw electricity, gasoline and diesel as well as any other method of generating power except by human or animals.

It will easily end the current unemployment mess not to mention cut the CO2 emission to almost nothing, create a community spirit, end the surveillance programs (both the one run by the CIA and the one run by Facebook and Google) bring the troops home (although it will take a while as they will have to walk) put an end to money in politics reduce the income difference between the 1% and the rest and solve plenty of other problems as well.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#47

Post by randomdata »

pcowans wrote: post #43
randomdata wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, therein lies the problem I see. I do agree that anyone can become a great programmer. But, If everyone is a great programmer, a small subset will be even greater programmers and all of the companies will want to wait to hire them. There is, again, no drive to hire just anyone. I'm not certain there is any solution that can come from the top. However, hungry people always find a way. I do feel we'll eventually s…

Then we'll do more programming - I'm sure we've not run out of problems that can be solved through software.

That is one likely shift. That the great programmers, and people of all tech disciplines for that matter, will do their own great things, rather than be employed by someone else; who will only hire the really great. Again, there is no reason for employers to take on the risk of just a great programmer when they can wait for a really great programmer. Just being a great programmer will not be enough for employment.

However, right now, that is not a role the average American wants to take on, even if they have the skills. Much of our society is based around the idea of a stable income from being employed by others. People of HN are typically outliers in that regard.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#48

Post by ebiester »

randomdata wrote: post #41
ebiester wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, then, how do we increase the supply of "great people?" I argue that there is a percentage in the agriculture, call center, and manufacturing industry, if given the six years of math and programming, could be top programmers. These same people would be motivated to do so, but have families to feed and mortgages to pay. We have potential supply. We have demand. How do we get from A to B?

Well, therein lies the problem I see. I do agree that anyone can become a great programmer. But, If everyone is a great programmer, a small subset will be even greater programmers and all of the companies will want to wait to hire them. There is, again, no drive to hire just anyone. I'm not certain there is any solution that can come from the top. However, hungry people always find a way. I do feel we'll eventually s…

Hungry people often don't find a way.

Or rather, they sell drugs and rob houses. Or take those two minimum wage jobs and tell yourself "someday."

I have seen very few people pull themselves up by their bootstraps, so to speak. And this isn't an easy gap to fulfill.

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#49

Post by tomjen3 »

prostoalex wrote: post #45
OstiaAntica wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, currently the government punishes companies that hire employees-- all sorts of payroll, worker's comp, and unemployment taxes, and also workplace legal liability that is extreme in the U.S. To the degree there is already a lot of central planning in U.S. labor markets, the government actively works against employment.

In Denmark, they tax fatty foods to discourage them. In the States, we tax payroll.

Thats a nice saying and I hate to ruin it but believe me most people in Denmark knows that the tax on fatty foods is just an excuse to bring in more money to the government.

I mean are you really going to buy less meat because it went up 5%?

Re: We Can All Become Job Creators

#50

Post by onemoreact »

randomdata wrote: post #17
hugh3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What proportion of jobs in the United States are in programming or things analogous to programming? What proportion of jobs in the United States are in agriculture, manufacturing, or things analogous to agriculture and manufacturing? I think you may be suffering from short-sightedness, and assuming that the whole world looks a lot more like your corner of it than it does.

It is not about absolute values, it is about trends. There's no question the tech sector is small, relatively speaking, but agriculture and manufacturing jobs are shrinking while technology-based jobs are growing. For every job lost in agriculture and manufacturing, there is a new job in the tech industry. However, unless you are highly skilled, nobody will be interested in you. That is the problem. Farmers desperate…

For most existing industry's, 1 new tech job costs more than 1 non tech job. Because the tech job costs more so it need to replace more than 1 job or there is no reason to change.

PS: That's not to say increased efficiency is bad, but it requires someone to spend that new wealth on something before a new job shows up. I have personally destroyed over 100 jobs and while in theory they are going to pop up at some other place in the economy they can just as easily pop up on the other side of the world.

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