Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular • Hacker News Board

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#761

Post by chrischen » Sun, May 01, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #191

xvector wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are arguing in bad faith, just like the OP. Can we keep discussion civil? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - "Assume good faith." > There are several important differences, Historically. But if the historical context of slavery did not exist, it would still be just as unacceptable to treat Black individuals differently. In essence, historical context is largely irrelevant to whether an action is…

I believe I am being civil. I also think bad faith can be demonstrated, and that it has been. >As such, treating Black individuals differently is not more or less wrong than treating short individuals differently. Again, as I have mentioned repeatedly, we agree on this point. Where we disagree is in the assertion that there is "no difference" in effect, precisely because of the historical context.

You keep bringing the argument to the literal definition of “no difference” which no one is arguing against you on. One is heigh and one is race. They aren’t literally the same thing but it’s also clearly not what is being compared here.

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#762

Post by chrischen » Sun, May 01, 2022, 5:53 PM UTC

xeromal wrote: post #125

thoms_a wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how far I had to scroll down to find one person (on HN no less) finally stating the obvious. Thor could be 8ft tall and able to lift to a house. It won't save him from a drone swarm designed by a nerd at Lockheed.

I don't think anyone is arguing who has greater modern power. I think people are just arguing if the preferences are created through upbringing or do they come from something more innate in our biology.

They come from messages broadcast in media culture, and people saying disparaging remarks about height non-chalantly. All these things are malleable.

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#763

Post by chrischen » Sun, May 01, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

xeromal wrote: post #124

chrischen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you add that and other hunter-gatherer positive qualities, those don't apply in modern society as much either. Today the frail rich nerd wins, for the most part (or at least their ability to kill a man wit their bare hands matters a lot, lot less).

Agreed. I'll also say though that we have these preferences and a lot of them are hardwired. Some come from upbringing but our brains looking for symmetry in a face or perhaps certain features on men or women come from our DNA. I find women of a certain size and shape attractive. That doesn't mean I can't find other kinds of women attractive, but you're doing the argument a disservice if you don't think at least some…

I think many people over attribute to innateness what is likely caused by childhood upbringing and conditioning over time, which can feel like its innate.

See this article about an isolated tribe that has developed an ability to see shades of green other humans cannot: https://gondwana-collection.com/blog/how-do-namibian-himbas-...

Even if part of it is genetics, it shows even that is easily malleable therefore manipulatable for long term goals.

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#764

Post by chrischen » Sun, May 01, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

LMYahooTFY wrote: post #349

chrischen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can, but hasn't. Our prejudice against short people is almost certainly a result of past associations with malnutrition and poverty. I can't speak for other reasons, but this reason for short stature is no longer a main cause in modern Western (or even Eastern) society. Plus what you say about the fickleness of advantage/disadvantage equally applies to tall stature. Maybe Ryanair will start charging tall people ex…

And your comments all demonstrate you believe you've found the objective enlightenment that height preference can be dismissed as a "prejudice".

Prejudice is always masked as “preference.” Just because you say you prefer X doesn’t mean you know what you want pt what you are talking about. Many people actually choose self-harming things and this is the essence of inexperience and the learning process.

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#765

Post by xeromal » Sun, May 01, 2022, 5:59 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #763

xeromal wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'll also say though that we have these preferences and a lot of them are hardwired. Some come from upbringing but our brains looking for symmetry in a face or perhaps certain features on men or women come from our DNA. I find women of a certain size and shape attractive. That doesn't mean I can't find other kinds of women attractive, but you're doing the argument a disservice if you don't think at least some…

I think many people over attribute to innateness what is likely caused by childhood upbringing and conditioning over time, which can feel like its innate. See this article about an isolated tribe that has developed an ability to see shades of green other humans cannot: https://gondwana-collection.com/blog/how-do-namibian-himbas-... Even if part of it is genetics, it shows even that is easily malleable therefore manip…

I appreciate this comment and you're probably right at least with me. It's hard to define the lines between genetics and upbringing or maybe a combination of both!

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#766

Post by chrischen » Sun, May 01, 2022, 5:59 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #533

chrischen wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual preference is largely shaped by societal influences as well. As I stated at the end there's historical pretext to this: fat women used to be preferred by men. Sexual preferences have changed over time. It's just as wrong as assuming that patriarchal society is some universal truth. Assuming that it is some innate quality that women are attracted to people taller than them is also flawed. What about homosexual…

Fat women in mediaeval times would be possibly thinner than an average Western woman now? Have you seen the fattest guy in the World from ~1900s picture he's large but he'd probably fit in an airline seat? It's really hard to consider these things as "fatter" probably meant larger dowry (!), better survivability, healthier and by extension better for child-rearing. Whilst fatter in Western society now (anorexia, etc.…

I’m not saying they were fatter, but that they preferred fatter. Fatness was a proxy for wealth, which meant that it was easier to be emaciated back then, which means people were less likely to be overweight.

Contrast to today where it is easy to be fat, so therefore not hip to be round anymore. That means we’d see more fatter people than in the past because it is easy now.

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#767

Post by xeromal » Sun, May 01, 2022, 6:00 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #762

xeromal wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is arguing who has greater modern power. I think people are just arguing if the preferences are created through upbringing or do they come from something more innate in our biology.

They come from messages broadcast in media culture, and people saying disparaging remarks about height non-chalantly. All these things are malleable.

Why would our ancient ancestors in the middle east and elsewhere use large men as their examples of powerful men who attain women and treasure?

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#768

Post by chrischen » Sun, May 01, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #163

chrischen wrote: post #35

> “Don’t be so sure of yourself, short man!” The problem is that it's still socially acceptable to see short stature as some objective faux-pas. There's really no difference between a person proudly declaring they only like "white" people and a person declaring they only like "tall" people. If the guy said "Don't be so sure of yourself, black man" maybe it would have been acceptable in the 1920s, but it surely isn't…

Yes and no. It's complicated. Mate selection is not and should not be institutionalized which means that you are within your rights to discriminate on...anything. Your criteria may be based on "taste", past experiences or downright prejudice. It is inevitable that as you pick a mate, you discriminate. You can't stop that nor should you. We can however openly discuss criteria that are unhealthy, perverted, make no sen…

Yea and the problem is there is an institution actively suppressing smallness. Why not let smallness speak for itself?

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#769

Post by [deleted] » Sun, May 01, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

ss108 wrote: post #493

Xeronate wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And following that I think people need to think about if they really want a person that thinks that. I'm 5'10" and feel like I do fine in the market despite not being over 6 foot and not mentioning my job or any of the other stuff people don't want to be judged on. I'm sure plenty of girls pass on me, but I truly wouldn't want to be with them anyway.

...you're not short. facepalm According to the article, if you're in the US, that's an inch above average.

[deleted]

Re: Limb lengthening surgery is becoming more popular

#770

Post by bigfudge » Sun, May 01, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #315

bigfudge wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here is that height is also correlated with nutrition and by proxy social class. Whatever that study says, eradicating that type of confounding from statistical associations is hard/impossible.

It's not as hard as you think, and the correlation with nutrition and social class is disappearing and even non-existent in many places. See Japan: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/02/12/national/scienc... There's an increase in low birth rate babies (not due to malnutrition), probably due to increased survivability of smaller more frail babies. The fact that they grow up and lead healthy lives means that their…

Right, but selecting for in the present tense (ie past 30 years) is going to have a negligible impact on population statistics.

Also, ruling out that kind of confounding -is- hard… as mostly practiced any measurement error in confounders reduces our ability to ‘control for’ them… but most epidemiology and all nutrition research just glosses over this.