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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#621

Post by zozbot234 »

88913527 wrote: post #589
zozbot234 wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, a close, loving, supportive family is hugely important, for everyone in it. Telling people that it doesn't matter if they divorce and that they should put their own short-term happiness first and foremost is tantamount to denying this. And when it's the liberal upper class doing this, they're pretty much pulling up the ladder to effective social cohesion behind themselves, even as they hypocritically enjoy its…

A lot of this discussion seems to be wrapped up in the idea that the lower classes look up to the upper classes. Is there any evidence for this point? It seems to imply poor people unable to think critically and independently. Yet, there exists households of modest means where each partner holds their other half accountable-- yet nobody is talking about those people. What's different about them, and what differentiat…

Because when people think critically and independently, they get called "deplorables", "bigoted" or "conspiracy nuts" by the liberal elite who don't like what they have to say.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#622

Post by rayiner »

Applejinx wrote: post #533
photochemsyn wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much of the elite wealthy class and their media sock puppets on both sides of the traditional left/right political divide are dedicated to pushing the identitarian culture war theme - because what they don't want to deal with is something like this: "Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect."

As notacoward observes… literally 'men'? To my ear, 'people' would've worked too. I feel it's always worth asking whether there are unstated axioms here being snuck into the discourse. Especially in a big conversation about how 'everything is being ruined because people won't stick to the old good ways'. Though it may be an uncomfortable question to some, to what extent does this rest upon female humans serving as li…

Any culture that equates women having and raising kids with “being livestock” will be replaced by a society that doesn’t see motherhood that way. By definition.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#623

Post by 88913527 »

michaelt wrote: post #76
Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> How do they undermine the norm? They don't do this on purpose they are also just humans. I read a book [1] that argued the upper middle class follows very traditional values (two-parent families, marrying before having children, having at least one adult working 40 hours a week) but doesn't really advocate for those traditional values. People in the upper middle class will praise the bravery of single mothers and s…

It makes sense upper middle class wouldn't advocate for traditional values. They instead put up barriers to join the upper middle class. The book "Dream Hoarders" captures this well (restrictive zoning, parents helping finding internships, etc) [0]. If the playbook was available to everyone, then it would make maintaining your own position in the hierarchy all the more difficult. One thing the upper middle class fears the most is losing their position in society: the class provides solid income, but it isn't enough wealth to prevent being wiped out by a health incident or a bad investment.

I'm paraphrasing, but Charlie Munger [1] recently said that our economic system depends on agony to get ahead.

> what makes capitalism work is the fact that if you’re an able-bodied young person and you refuse to work, you suffer a fair amount of agony. It’s because of that agony that the whole economic system work.

[0]: https://www.brookings.edu/book/dream-hoarders/

[1]: https://junto.investments/daily-journal-2022-transcript/

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#624

Post by pclmulqdq »

hotpotamus wrote: post #405
pclmulqdq wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The third bullet here is basic economics. When you create demand for a product by subsidizing it, people will create supply. Practically, these subsidies mean that poorer women who could marry the father of their children will often choose not to because they are getting money from the government that exceeds what the man can bring in. It is a little bit like the effect of a very high minimum wage: it helps a certain…

So are government benefits super generous or are these men just unable to make good wages despite "the man's attempt to work like a dog"?

Minimum wage * 50 hours per week is less than the benefits you would lose from it. There is literally a >100% marginal income tax at the bottom income brackets if you factor in loss of benefits. This also was in New York where benefits and taxes are high.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#625

Post by scruple »

sandworm101 wrote: post #174
jonahx wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. What do you attribute this to? Is it mostly just lifestyle choice? Or would most of them prefer to have a wife/gf but don't have one for whatever reason?

A stable job just doesn't compete anymore. Single heterosexual girls want guys with prospects and/or family money. Some of these guys are afraid of dating, afraid that something might go wrong that could impact their careers. Deployments have also changed. Soldiers don't date or even talk to local girls anymore. Interestingly, many of these guys are also stone-sober. Not recovering alcoholics. They just don't drink.…

> Interestingly, many of these guys are also stone-sober. Not recovering alcoholics. They just don't drink. They don't ever hook up at bars. That bar scene you see in every military movie never happens.

Is that true in the enlisted ranks, as well, I wonder? I believe that I saw you mentioned in another comment that you were talking about officers.

Anyway, I can tell you from experience that 20 years ago, around the bases I was stationed at, it was definitely still happening. We went out on the weekends, we partied hard, we hooked up, dated, some of them even got married, etc., with local girls from bars and clubs.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#626

Post by lolinder »

otikik wrote: post #559
rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

The implication of "liberal values = high divorce. Conservative values = low divorce" might make sense intuitively (as one group claims to put more shame on it than the other), but until it is backed with data it is just "an impression". Here's my 2 minutes attempt: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/marriage-divorce.htm#state_tab... I have sorted that list several ways (rate of divorce in 2000, in 1990 and average). Of t…

Comparing divorce rates like that is very hard because where divorce is culturally stigmatized, cohabitation is also stigmatized. The result is you get a bunch of people who get married, have kids, find out they're incompatible, and get divorced.

In other states with different cultures, that exact pattern (including the kids) can play out but never end up in the divorce stats because instead of getting married the couple just lives together for a while. Once kids are involved the negative effects are much the same as in a divorce (minus the legal bills), it just doesn't show up in the stats.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#628

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

Applejinx wrote: post #533
photochemsyn wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much of the elite wealthy class and their media sock puppets on both sides of the traditional left/right political divide are dedicated to pushing the identitarian culture war theme - because what they don't want to deal with is something like this: "Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect."

As notacoward observes… literally 'men'? To my ear, 'people' would've worked too. I feel it's always worth asking whether there are unstated axioms here being snuck into the discourse. Especially in a big conversation about how 'everything is being ruined because people won't stick to the old good ways'. Though it may be an uncomfortable question to some, to what extent does this rest upon female humans serving as li…

All humans, indeed every life-form, are for "serving as livestock and spawning/rearing children", period. Until somebody invents Dune-style axolotl tanks to clone people and robot nannies, that's not going to change. If a society and its culture can't perpetuate itself, it will be replaced by one that does so we all need to come up with a balance that works to perpetuate the type of society that we want.

In the meantime, maybe ease up on flamebait language like "subhuman underclass" and trying to insinuate the person you're replying to is some kind of scoundrel and try suggesting solutions to the fraying social balance instead? Because it's increasingly obvious that there's a problem here.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#629

Post by itronitron »

newbamboo wrote: post #573
onionisafruit wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People tend to be absolutist about whether it’s better for kids if unhappy parents get divorced, but as the saying goes every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Some marriages are hell for everybody involved and need to end. I put abuse situations in that category of course and also marriages that have so much animosity that they can’t stop fighting. On the other end of marriages that may end in divorce are si…

Women control the social capital and function as norm setters in our society. Fixing men won’t help if women and the prevailing culture remain broken. All the divorces I’ve witnessed, nearly every married childhood friend of mine has been the victim of unwanted divorce - in every instance initiated by women who simply wanted a younger, richer, more x partner. All were heavily endorsed by the surrounding social groups…

Since it seems like you have a pretty good sample size, I am curious whether you have noticed a difference or pattern in upbringing among the current and/or former wives of your childhood friends.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#630

Post by sanderjd »

lolinder wrote: post #595
sanderjd wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with the whole argument being made in this article is exhibited in your pull quote as well: working class people don't know or care what that "highly educated and affluent person" thinks about anything. It is not then clear to me how that person's stance on this - which I don't share - could possibly be the cause of the problems of people who don't care what that person thinks.

It's not the opinions of any one person that matter, it's the expressed opinion of society as a whole, which is made up of the expressed opinions of every individual. It has to start with someone, but I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that one person speaking out is sufficient to alter the culture.

There is no "opinion of society as a whole". There are myriad different cultures within the society, each with their own opinion.
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