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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

401–410 of 1001 posts

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The article is right on the mark talking about the importance of social expectations for men." Those only really work if the opportunities are there for the person to succeed. If you have no hope of success, then people just give up.

True. But people also just give up if they're constantly told that all the opportunities are gone, whether or not it's true. If you combine "there are no opportunities for me" with "there are no expectations for me", you get "I'll do nothing".

Even if you have expectations, many opportunities may be gone. Just look at the lack of non-college work in the US that pays a living wage. Now try to get one of those jobs if you're competing against others who have no criminal history if you have a minor one.

I have a job as a dev and even I'm tired of this treadmill. Taxes, COL, healthcare, etc. No time/money to do the things I want. No real career, just a job. Lies and discrimination at work. I don't blame others for giving up when their circumstances might mean that's the best option for them.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not merely expectations but intergenerational poverty. I get that you think that you came from a less privileged background than your in-laws and in some respects that's true, but even being able to immigrate to the US indicates a degree of social mobility that simply isn't available to the intergenerationally poor in rural America. These are people who grew up in places without anything to do, no training for h…

Quoted post unavailable.

Depends on the immigrant family. The ones from Mexico and Central American certainly don't have much, but those coming from East and South Asia who immediately start businesses on arrival have access to more wealth (either personally or via social connections) than many native-born Americans will have access to in their entire lives.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having come from a large family, I never realized that people didn't understand just how much work kids are. It's relentless. My wife is regularly astonished. I'm lucky to have been able to stop at one. I would have preferred married but childless but I'll take married to her over any other option, so I compromised. At with just one, we aren't spread so thin.

I was an only child. My wife has a brother. We felt it was important for our children to have siblings to have the opportunity for sibling relationships in adulthood.

That all depends on the relationship between the siblings. I have 6 siblings and because of life choices we rarely keep in touch. My spouse is in the exact situation.

Why? Is it possible our busy schedules, ability to relocate, and less dependency on each other are reasons why this may not be as important as it was at one time?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#404
post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

"luxury beliefs" feels to me like the right found a way to say "privilege" without actually saying it, haha.

[deleted]

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they? I can see the third bullet in practice, although I think it’s more of a fix than a cause for single-parent homes. On the other hand, my social circle is highly educated and well-off and I’m not sure I know a single person who would agree with the first bullet. The second point I’m less clear on myself: is there evidence that children of lesbian couples are somehow worse off?

The third bullet here is basic economics. When you create demand for a product by subsidizing it, people will create supply. Practically, these subsidies mean that poorer women who could marry the father of their children will often choose not to because they are getting money from the government that exceeds what the man can bring in. It is a little bit like the effect of a very high minimum wage: it helps a certain…

So are government benefits super generous or are these men just unable to make good wages despite "the man's attempt to work like a dog"?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#406
Something here that doesn't seem to make sense to me: The idea that the middle class determines relationship norms that are then followed by the working class/poorer people. I didn't see the argument for why this would be the case and I'm not sure I buy it just on its face. But ok, since he's quoting from something else perhaps he just didn't quote the argument. Assuming the claim is basically correct, that relationship norms are determined by the middle class (for example, perhaps due to middle class influence on how relationships are depicted in TV & film), then what's the explanation for poorer people following the cultural shift toward less commitment or later commitment (the stuff about "as long as they are not married, it is acceptable for either partner to walk away at any time"), but not copying the shift toward having children later?

As I see it, what's happened in the middle class is that relationships don't reach the stage of full commitment until much later (walking away is considered to be normal and healthy prior to marriage, people expect to have several relationships before "settling down", etc), but having children before you've reached a committed relationship is still very much thought of as reckless and bad.

So overall I just don't really buy this part; it does not seem well supported by the rest of the piece.

Quoting the paras just as a reference for which part I'm referring to: "The educated class decides cohabiting partnerships are just as valid and important as marriage. And they also believe it’s okay to walk away at a moment’s notice from a cohabiting relationship.

"Poor and working-class people follow suit. To the detriment of themselves and their children."

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#407
post #44

Do people find this stuff compelling? Rank speculation and confident assertion with minimal substantive backing? I’d find this statement equally compelling (which is to say, not at all): > Since we stopped using horses as a primary means of transportation, men’s sense of self worth has diminished. Riding a horse carried a lot of high status connotations: drive, masculinity, towering above the land, and man’s dominati…

No, it is garbage. A huge series of completely unsupported claims.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works in one direction though. If opportunity doesn't exist, it doesn't matter if you set expectations that it does.

Still better to instill expectations even if opportunity currently does not exist. If it arises one day that person will do better.

Until then they'll be crushed and/or feel lied to.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#409
post #277
post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

> Watching and hearing about the family instability in these communities is heartbreaking. Half or more of everyone’s parents are divorced. The kids float around seeking stability and the adults can’t provide it. You seem to be attributing the cause of this to 'Telling men and boys it's cool and fine to divorce' and not attributing to say... declining material and social capitol in the lower four quintiles of wealth…

>> I won't dwell on this, but not every (or even most) children benefit from this approach to parenting. Extreme rigidity, in fact, is more associated with negative long-term outcomes.

Nobody is advocating "extreme rigidity". Consistently enforced boundaries have benefits for people across the board. I would argue that's the most important thing (maybe even the only thing) in raising kids to become responsible adults.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#410
post #132

I can appreciate this perspective because I used to have it. I even wrote a similar blog post 10 years ago - it was on the top of HN and the comment section was a beautiful shitshow. For me, this perspective was a good story to tell myself - it justified why I was only investing my time in “work”, and validated me for having “come so far”. Over time, I have reflected and shifted this perspective. That reflection cent…

I agree - and will take it one step further: he misses the root causes of "instability", and I bet it tracks directly with the gutting of the middle class starting in the 70's, and/or the same flat-lining of wages (not keeping up with inflation etc) despite huge increases in productivity in about the same time period.

Money is a huge stressor in relationships. Misogyny is still a huge thing (to my utter surprise honestly). Abuse, etc. Options for financial stability to escape these things I would suspect to contribute as well.

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