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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#151

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

andrewclunn wrote: post #4

> The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes. But actively undermine the norm for everyone else. Yep. If you were raised in poverty, the WORST thing you can do is listen to "approved" mainstream advice. That culture / media isn't there to help you, but to sell you things or make money on telling you what…

You quoted from TFA:

> The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs

which is another example of the bullshit-y parts of TFA.

1. the idea that "the people with the most money and education" form some sort of coherent cultural and ideological group is absurd. Does anyone think that the raft of Republican members of congress who went to ivy league schools shape culture and customs in the same way that, say, Beyonce does?

2. the idea that "the people with the most money and education" actually shape culture and customs is also open to substantive debate. Are they influential? Of course. Do they have some sort of exclusive control ? Doubtful.

3. the idea that there is a single culture or single set of customs is absurd on its face.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#152

Post by xpe »

greatpostman wrote: post #20

Quoted post unavailable.

Have you studied statistics?

Using a variable to group a large number is people is essential to statistically understand variation within that group.

It seems like you may be unaware of the difference between normative and positive statements.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#153

Post by OminousWeapons »

PaulHoule wrote: post #11

A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate. Having children out of wedlock is a safety valve for broken institutions that keeps the birth rate higher in the US than comparable countries; that plus relatively open integration helps us maintain our economy, welfare state, pensions, etc. If we turned the screws on women and men to di…

> A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate.

Yes, but the value systems (at least in Asia) are quite different than even conservative ones in the US so I don't think that's a fair comparison. In Asia there is an expectation that relationships will lead to marriage, that you will marry well before thirty, that women will exit the workforce following marriage, that married couples will have children quickly, and that enormous amounts of resources will be spent on raising those children (especially in terms of education).

The birth rate has gone down there because it is overly burdensome to be married and have children under these expectations. This is far different than even conservative expectations in the US which basically amount to the father should be able to hold down a job and show up.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#154

Post by sandworm101 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #138
sandworm101 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminality and education are not distinct. Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, they are just far less likely to be caught. Either the nature of thier crimes does not lend itself to reporting (embezzelment v. bank robbery) or they recieve different treatment by the legal system.

>Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, I'm gonna call bullshit on this. Even if you assume all demographics are snorting coke and beating their wives equally there are so, so, so many laws you can just trivially comply with by expending a little bit more money and there is so much less incentive for petty crime when you are in a career track where misdemeanors matter.

Tax evasion, child abuse, embezzlement, drug abuse/dealing, drunk driving ... all crimes that can easily go unreported and if are reported result in reduced punishments for those who can afford good lawyers. Look at Rush Limbaugh. Plenty of drug-related criminality there but zero convictions. Will smith just attacked someone on camera but just walked away without even an interview by police. It isn't just the ultra-famous/rich. They are just the best examples of what privilege really means. (And the Russ/Oscars incidents are polar opposites of the political spectrum.)

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#156

Post by jonahx »

sandworm101 wrote: post #119
rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a matter of luck—men in my dad’s village in Bangladesh start families, have kids, and live relatively happy lives in poverty even most poor Americans could not comprehend. I don’t think it’s fair to call all these guys incels. As the article observes, most just have no expectations placed on them, and also have no way of attaining dignity and social worth through the avenues in life reasonably available to t…

It is sunday morning. I'm at work (military). Part of that job is checking in with people at a half-dozen other locations who are also at work on a sunday morning. they just happen to all be hetero guys, which is not unusual in the military no matter the day. So I asked in our chat whether they had wives/girlfriends at home today. "No." "Nope." "My car is my GF" and "Rocking a peppi shirt under my uniform". These are…

Interesting.

What do you attribute this to? Is it mostly just lifestyle choice? Or would most of them prefer to have a wife/gf but don't have one for whatever reason?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#157

Post by titzer »

seibelj wrote: post #117
pydry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it came to race, 63 percent of Black voters polled supported allocating portions of police funding to social programs, while only 35 percent of white voters agreed. https://thehill.com/homenews/news/542108-poll-finds-only-18-... It isnt a very popular slogan in general these days (even among blacks) but the rich, privileged and white people loathe it most of all.

> “only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed.” I think your representation of blacks and the police is woefully misinformed and is a figment of liberal imagination

Just wondering how many AirBnBs in Compton you've checked out.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#158

Post by culopatin »

cebert wrote: post #71
gryson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a low (and falling) birthrate. Not quite as low as South Korea, but certainly not high by any means.

The US is likely fine because our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in. I don’t see any indication that this will change. The benefit is even if the US birth rate is declining, we have an influx of younger individuals who can help keep the economy going.

Just walking in doesn’t make you part of the economy as you imply. I can’t reject or support your claim of the border because I haven’t seen it myself and if I google it I’m sure I’ll find hits for either side, but I can tell you that being an illegal immigrant does not help either side. They can’t get a normal job with a W2, so if they pay taxes (which many do because they are more afraid of the IRS than homeland security), it’s probably not an accurate amount. So the only part of your economy that keeps moving is the uninsured motorist insurance and cash transactions in small groups. Obviously the declining rate is not a problem for the US otherwise they would simplify the immigration process and embrace that people want to move to this country to work and do good and increase the GDP

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#159

Post by nkrisc »

aga98mtl wrote: post #16
Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> How do they undermine the norm? Richer people have kids in their thirties, so the media is full of people in their twenties living it up. Poorer men have kids in their twenties and then they feel like losers for living the boring lifestyle of a responsible breadwinner. They want to copy the carefree lifestyle shown as "normal" by our culture.

It’s sort of funny: they make the same mistake the “red pill” crowd makes. First they want to emulate a false reality that doesn’t exist, then some of them end up rejecting that same false reality that never existed (the red pill crowd) and end up tilting against windmills. Both groups have deluded themselves by choosing keep their eyes closed to the actual reality they exist in which is far more mundane.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#160

Post by BlargMcLarg »

bilbo0s wrote: post #82
rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

I hate to be "that guy", but you guys have this whole thing backwards. What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. If sex is free then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, but it won't cause those men to work harder. Why? Because sex is free. Full stop. If sex costs more than most men will ever have, then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, most men…

>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex.

Too simple, though what you say captures the essence. People have breakpoints for how hard they are willing to work for various things. Some of them are progressive (relationship -> kids -> family). Some are lateral (relationship, starting a business).

For a lot of men, they see getting a relationship is more difficult than just having low effort sex. So they get exactly that and continue on with their lives otherwise.

Next step, families and children. Have a relationship? Cool, now look at how much effort it takes to start a family and raise kids. Look at the risks involved. Look at the demands it takes. Loads of guys go "nope, too much, too risky, too little reward" and check out.

Society has been pushing to make it much easier to have sex risk-free. They have made it much harder to start a relationship, let alone start a family, by introducing all these risks and incentives not to. Plenty of men still want a family more than or on top of sex. They just don't want the current deal given to them.

Cherry on top, almost every time the debate opens as to why men in particular don't want this deal (as opposed to "why do people / women not want this deal"), the discussion turns into shaming men into taking the deal rather than evaluating things and working together. No civil conversation, just a bunch of monkeys flinging poo. And people are surprised men are ghosting society, when you won't even pretend to listen?

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