No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#131

Post by Karunamon » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #70

seibelj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.

"Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working." Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all. It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.

You don't get to call your movement a name and then cry foul when that name is taken at its plain english meaning. "Reform" is just as pithy and just as easy to say, and infinitely more accurate.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#132

Post by jcstk » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

I can appreciate this perspective because I used to have it. I even wrote a similar blog post 10 years ago - it was on the top of HN and the comment section was a beautiful shitshow. For me, this perspective was a good story to tell myself - it justified why I was only investing my time in “work”, and validated me for having “come so far”.

Over time, I have reflected and shifted this perspective. That reflection centered around the question the author hasn’t asked himself yet: who creates these expectations? It’s always some loose definition like “society” or “elite”, or some other handy wavy grouping of people.

But, to be clear, those expectations are coming from the author. That’s his perspective of what the world thinks, based on his interactions, based on what he chooses to read, listen to, etc. He's not describing anyone but himself.

I found that if I find myself projecting onto social norms, society, or some other loose definition of “they”, what I’m really doing is projecting a part of myself that I haven’t been honest about yet.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#133

Post by bo1024 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #88

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

Society would be a hell of a lot better off if more people practiced what they preached. I really respect the hardliner commies and theocrats on their respective ends of the spectrum for consistently doing this and for consistently acknowledging and not liking when they are forced to do things not consistent with their beliefs. As a side note with regard to familial stability in general, look how dis-incentivizing fa…

It sounds more like the author wants "elites" to preach what they practice.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#134

Post by photochemsyn » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #124

photochemsyn wrote: post #120

I think there are quite a few alternative explanations for the data cited in the article than the ones the author proposes: > "Today, one in six American men between the ages of 25 and 54 are unemployed or out of the workforce altogether: about 10 million men. This number has more than doubled since the 1970s." We have this place in the USA called "The Rust Belt" which was once a dynamic and active manufacturing cent…

>This resulted in the explosive growth of the quite profitable private prison complex (which did not exist before the 1970s) The government prison complex is orders of magnitude larger. Welfare is how they keep the poors from rocking the boat. Government jobs is the same tranquilizer but for people slightly better off. Edit: fine, maybe it's only one order of magnitude bigger.

I think you need to check your data sources.

> "Private prisons in the United States incarcerated 115,428 people in 2019, representing 8% of the total state and federal prison population. Since 2000, the number of people housed in private prisons has increased 32% compared to an overall rise in the prison population of 3%."

https://nicic.gov/private-prisons-united-states-2021

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#135

Post by xpe » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

greatpostman wrote: post #20

Quoted post unavailable.

Have you reviewed the HN guidelines recently? As I understand it, there is no need to comment on being banned or downvoted. Just say what you think is worth saying, being mindful of the guidelines.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#136

Post by walkhour » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

karpierz wrote: post #72

The article cites an anecdote about a young father who sat around the house arguing, fighting and drinking. He ends up getting kicked out of the house. The 1960s version of this story instead ends with the husband beating his wife behind closed doors without repercussions. Which is preferable?

> the husband beating his wife behind closed doors without repercussions

Families were much bigger back then. The extended family was always around. Communities were much tighter and actually existed.

I think you don't have a good understanding of those times if you think women could be beaten around without repercussions, and honestly, thinking women are so helpless smells of sexism.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#137

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

aga98mtl wrote: post #16

Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> How do they undermine the norm? Richer people have kids in their thirties, so the media is full of people in their twenties living it up. Poorer men have kids in their twenties and then they feel like losers for living the boring lifestyle of a responsible breadwinner. They want to copy the carefree lifestyle shown as "normal" by our culture.

Perhaps the best way to copy that lifestyle would be to, well, copy the choice to not have kids in their twenties (or teens). It’s hard to see how the choice by some to delay kids is somehow undermining others.

Conversely, the choice to have kids earlier brings its own set of benefits (having more physical energy is one that I wished for somewhat often and I think there’s evidence of earlier pregnancies being lower risk).

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#138

Post by throwaway0a5e » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #9

franciscop wrote: post #5

This has been a really good read! Thanks for sharing, the only place where I had a strong disagreement was this, which could definitely be based on cultural differences: > The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes. But actively undermine the norm for everyone else. I am not from the USA but I don't beli…

Criminality and education are not distinct. Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, they are just far less likely to be caught. Either the nature of thier crimes does not lend itself to reporting (embezzelment v. bank robbery) or they recieve different treatment by the legal system.

>Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate,

I'm gonna call bullshit on this.

Even if you assume all demographics are snorting coke and beating their wives equally there are so, so, so many laws you can just trivially comply with by expending a little bit more money and there is so much less incentive for petty crime when you are in a career track where misdemeanors matter.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#139

Post by EdwardDiego » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

> Poor and working-class people follow suit. To the detriment of themselves and their children.

Uh. I know the author grew up rough, but yeah, I'm going to need a citation on this one.

This entire article is based on one huge assumption - everything was better when people felt compelled by society to get married. Was it? Was it really?

Is that why there was an entire genre of boomer humour that can be condensed down to "hahaha, I hate my husband/wife?" Were there no social problems attributable to dysfunctional families in the 1960s and 1970s?

Also this...

> And a lot did use to be expected [of men]. There were social norms to work hard, provide, take care of loved ones, and so on. Today, these norms have largely dissolved.

They really have not. Try going on on Tinder as man without a job, see how far that gets you. Now try it as a woman, you'll be shocked and stunned, I'm sure, to see that it's still considered far more socially acceptable to be a woman out of work than a man out of work.

Gender roles are still very much baked into our society. I am the primary caregiver for my children, thanks to being a dev, I work from home full time, so I can do all the things that need doing, yet my wife, their step-Mum, has missed out on several jobs because people assume that she'll need to take too much time off if they get sick - right after she's told them that I'm the primary caregiver who works remotely so is at home for looking after sick kids, and during school holidays etc.

People flat out don't believe her, because they're still stuck in the mindset that men provide, and women care.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#140

Post by yummypaint » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

Helitioo wrote: post #7

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

Schools in the US are funded by property tax. It makes no sense to do that unless the goal is to keep everyone in their place and prevent kids born into poorer areas from competing on equal footing with the children of wealthy people.