No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#81

Post by hans1729 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

d23 wrote: post #44

Do people find this stuff compelling? Rank speculation and confident assertion with minimal substantive backing? I’d find this statement equally compelling (which is to say, not at all): > Since we stopped using horses as a primary means of transportation, men’s sense of self worth has diminished. Riding a horse carried a lot of high status connotations: drive, masculinity, towering above the land, and man’s dominati…

>Do people find this stuff compelling? Rank speculation and confident assertion with minimal substantive backing?

For me, it’s just playing with models, exploring ideas and representations in human-language space, which is fun, complex, hard… in that space, which you may call unsubstantial, every word references an individual graph. The more my attention system interfaces with the representations of such external graphs, the deeper my understanding of the world as a whole (or our shared models of it) becomes. So yeah, I enjoyed the read, Someone spent their energy on that. Don’t be so dismissive :-)

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#82

Post by bilbo0s » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

I hate to be "that guy", but you guys have this whole thing backwards.

What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex.

If sex is free then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, but it won't cause those men to work harder. Why? Because sex is free. Full stop.

If sex costs more than most men will ever have, then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, most men will still opt out. Since they know their chances are nil. Why? Because they'll never get sex, it costs more than they have. Full stop.

No amount of ideology is going to change these facts. No matter what the ideology is. (Of course, now I think about it, you could probably change it at the barrel of a gun. That is, the government could make blunt force laws that would force women to lower their prices for sex and companionship, or force men to work hard even in environments where sex is free. Or both I suppose? But that's not ideology moving men and women, but fear of the government's guns.)

And that's it. There is no grand philosophy behind it all. It's just a bunch of guys out trying to get off. And women out trying to get the best deal for what they offer. This is the kind of issue where liberals and conservatives generally go off the rails. They usually never account for base, vulgar human nature in their grand philosophies.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#83

Post by ryan93 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #70

seibelj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.

"Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working." Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all. It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.

They are an attribute of 100% of modern countries.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#84

Post by karpierz » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #49

gumby wrote: post #19

It’s interesting to read these (plausible, far from absurd) analyses from the Anglosphere when we have an alternative to compare, to whit the northern European democracies where marriage is in steep decline across all social classes yet the societies are more successful (at least if your metrics are things like poverty rates, lifetimes, nutrition, stress, etc).

Curious to see the source showing European democracies are more successful, controlling for socioeconomic status.

What does it mean to be "successful, controlling for socioeconomic status"?

Their success is defined by their peoples' socioeconomic status.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#85

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #52

pydry wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

Counterpoint: it’s easy to support abolishing the police, when a clogged milk foamer is the biggest threat to your personal safety. Live in a wonderful sheltered community, say ”I don’t see why we would need law enforcement”

While it is true that there are people who actually do propose completely defunding police activity or abolishing the police, they are a tiny minority of those who took part in protests about police behavior towards non-white communities.

It's so easy to make cheap digs about that handful of people instead of actually tackle the issues that this misnamed movement was/is really about.

If it had actually been called "Redirect substantive parts of the funding currently going to the police to provide alternate mechanisms to address a variety of situations and crises", would you still find it appropriate to make jabs about the situation of some of those who supported it?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#86

Post by kayodelycaon » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #64

There must be psychological studies of giving up somewhere, as it seems to be an increasingly common behavior and not limited just to men and marriage. From the "economic anxiety" of the (especially rural) US right to the "millennial malaise" that's slightly left if anything, it seems like people are giving up on college, good jobs, buying a house, relationships, and most especially all forms of government. Across th…

This is the question I hope to have answered. I feel that the article is touching on one aspect of a larger issue.

There has to be more than one factor here compounding the issue. If it was a single factor, fixing it would be a lot easier.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#87

Post by idontknowifican » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

when you have kids for no reason, they know they’re here for no reason, and it’s a formula for a disaffected person.

i don’t know if expectations being set because of being a man makes any sense, but i firmly believe you must have goals and morals. i think we spend a lot of time struggling with the roles we’re assigned. no for any deep reason, it’s just work and people tend to hate it.

i think it comes down to the intent of the parent in having a child. to a point of course, if you’re in your thirties and refuse to grow up. it’s hard to grow up when you were raised poorly by a sibling because your parents weren’t interested.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#88

Post by throwaway0a5e » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

Society would be a hell of a lot better off if more people practiced what they preached.

I really respect the hardliner commies and theocrats on their respective ends of the spectrum for consistently doing this and for consistently acknowledging and not liking when they are forced to do things not consistent with their beliefs.

As a side note with regard to familial stability in general, look how dis-incentivizing familial stability and fostering government dependency worked out for the communities it was done to in the 1960s and who benefited and who is still befitting. That's why it's being pushed, because the people who benefited want to go around again but with different/more demographics.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#89

Post by pydry » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #54

pydry wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.

When it came to race, 63 percent of Black voters polled supported allocating portions of police funding to social programs, while only 35 percent of white voters agreed.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/542108-poll-finds-only-18-...

It isnt a very popular slogan in general these days (even among blacks) but the rich, privileged and white people loathe it most of all.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#90

Post by slfnflctd » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #39

Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

They undermine it by: - claiming a single parent household is no worse for children than a two parent household - claiming men have no particular importance in the raising of children - financially supporting (in some cases subsidizing) single parent families

That's an entirely partisan take, and a hacky one.

There are plenty of wealthier families who shelter their children in ways poorer families cannot who have exactly the opposite views & approaches from what you described. Those efforts are often carried out through churches.