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Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

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501–510 of 666 posts

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also seen similar behavior on interview loops. I also would love for there to be fear of engaging in illegal discriminatory behavior for companies. However, as an individual person, the cost/benefit equation on whistleblowing just seems so so bad. It just doesn't seem worth it as an individual. If these illegal things are going to be pushed back against, it seems like it'll need to be a coordinated/collective ac…

Whistle blowing is legally protected. So if you do it keep a lawyer on hand so you can sue them latter when they retaliate.

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Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#502
post #131
post #45

In my experience, I've always found it quite strange that HR and recruitment is a field that seems to me to be female dominated, at least in the part of the UK where I am, and I can't help but feel that the imbalance at this level of the process reflects who gets hired.

HR & recruiting are female dominated simply because hiring women in these roles is the easiest way for a company to get their diversity numbers up.

I'd agree with the comments that reflect women's skills in networking and team consensus, rather than saying it was because of any sort of diversity quota. I've been at recruiters frequently where it was all-female offices, and, at risk of labouring a cheap point, it's sometimes been difficult to get my technical skills understood, outside of buzzwording.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#503

My sense is that most responses here are only to the title of the submission (the actual article title is "Gender discrimination in hiring: An experimental reexamination of the Swedish case"). Skimming through said actual article, it looks like the "against men" hiring discrimination is ~completely driven by this: "...In female-dominated occupations such as cleaner, childcare provider, preschool teacher, accounting c…

I think this requires major introspection, it relies on the idea that representation is only important in higher paying jobs when that still means exploiting yourself for a corporation

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#504
post #177
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work remotely and anonymously. Let the quality of your work shine through so that age becomes irrelevant. There aren't many such roles, but with remote work gaining popularity, they're becoming more of an option.

What jobs are hiring individuals anonymously?

You can dye your hair and use soft lighting to look a lot younger on video. I've seen senior engineers do exactly that to get remote jobs. Then after that you leave your camera off.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#505
post #184

There are very concerning patterns developing at the moment in the DEI space. DEI efforts, and often those leading them, are increasingly the most biased and close minded parts of the organization. Spreading selected stereotypes and often solving concerns about “discrimination” by being very biased and inequitable. For example at my last company a report showed that slightly fewer of a certain minority were promoted.…

I work at a FANG that is ramping up DEI efforts. Their recent campaign was about being diversity conscious and having less "white culture" (whatever that means). The thing is, this same company is hiring mostly for India, my coworkers and manager are from India, when they aren't they'll be from China, and occasionally from Europe. We have like 4-5 white guys in an org of +50. employees in the US. At this point (aside…

50 people in a FANG doesn't sound like being anything close to large enough to be representative of the whole org by random chance. Enjoy being the weird corner case?

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#506
post #365
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BC (Before COVID), I was having trouble finding a qualified person for a role on my team (Operations, not Engineering). I was getting a lot of candidates apply that looked the same on paper but weren't good fits (they claimed to be technical but weren't that technical, poor communication skills, etc.). So I went in the tool and looked through the discard pile and found more diverse candidates that hadn't been present…

Eh, having known some recruiters over the years? A lot of it is definitely not implicit.

Sure. This was a late 30’s white woman being biased against a late 30’s white woman. It didn’t feel intentional.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the whole, the weaker the gender roles in society the lower women's representation are in STEM [1]. I'm nearly 30 and there was ample messaging to try and get girls into technology when I was in elementary school decades ago. I disagree that society is implanting ideas in girls that they're not capable of succeeding in tech. This is a disparity that persists despite ample efforts to try and encourage girls to go i…

> I disagree that society is implanting ideas in girls that they're not capable of succeeding in tech. Then why do you think girls are self selecting away from computer science? Unless you believe they are somehow biologically wired to enjoy tech less it has to be because they're receiving messaging that causes them to believe they will enjoy it less than other fields relative to boys, right? I guess from your link y…

Has anyone here ever been married to a woman who isn't a software engineer? (Or at least talked to one? The fuck)

> Then why do you think girls are self selecting away from computer science?

Why do you think? Hypothesize. Do you think women/girls today are being told in-large they're too dumb or stupid to do such? (Especially considering girls actually get better test scores and grades than boys from an early age - choose whatever reason you want for that existing but it is the case)

It really isn't the case. Women choose other things because they're interested in other things. A lot of women don't want to work in STEM or tech because it's not particularly sexy. The ones who do work in it usually don't find it sexy but are instead, "Yeah, I'm pretty nerdy and into nerdy stuff. So, this is what I like to do." but most women aren't like that. A lot of social factors are involved but overall - women are known for being more social than men and STEM is very well known for being the least social of about any major field you could go into. Why would you go into something that wasn't very social unless you were less social yourself?

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#508
post #67

During my career, I've seen enough discrimination in the name of DEI as well. But what bothers me more is the ageism. The number of times an old person has been rejected from a job is too damn high. The reasons have always been "he may not work well with young people", "seniority complex", "he is over qualified" etc. Most of the times, they were more than qualified. I fear when I am into 40s or 50s, I will face the s…

I'm almost 50. I've been working in tech since 1996, and at this point, despite being a strong and seasoned engineer, I'm getting comments like, "it's different now", or "back in your day", etc, and the very young engineers fresh from school are the ones throwing this around. Those with a few years of experience under their belt don't. It's really disheartening, but it's also my job to train these bozos and turn them…

Recognizing seniority is hard. Computer Science is a field were a teenager in front of a computer quickly feels like a god. You can do anything!

But getting that out of their thinking takes time. And that is IMHO what you experience. It is disheartening that they lack the respect they should have socially independent of profession for an "elder" person.

I am in my early 40s as an architect arguing with our mixed-age teams to give me the necessary rationale before making stupid "it's different now" decisions.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#509
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear hear. If your conception of diversity doesn't include viewpoint diversity, you are operating within a prejudicial, small-minded, small-hearted, and regressive framework. If you belive the most salient details about a person can be read from their appearance, you are a bigot. This cuts every which way, but many want to pretend it's not true for their own biases. This includes seeing someone with blue hair and a p…

Viewpoint diversity is very, very important. But for a large contingent of the workforce, their viewpoints are already represented in the numerous implicit and ideological supports that our society has developed, without them even needing to be present: this is called "hegemony". If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. But one should be careful not to allow emotions and sens…

This seems like a well articulated case that you're making, though I'd like to argue from the opposite perspective for a bit.

> If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair.

This is a non-trivial objection. I struggle to think of many acceptable scenarios in which we have to choose between acknowledging something which we don't believe as true, or living in an unfair system.

Likewise, I don't know of any people personally who object to DEI efforts to make fields more appealing to a wider audience, or bringing in more diverse perspectives, or even critiquing existing processes.

The main objection that I see is against the policies which are enacted in pursuit of that goal. For instance, saying "our engineering team is largely Asian, we might be missing other perspectives" is a good call-out, and I can think of nobody who'd oppose calling that out. Enacting a policy that said "for the next engineer in this team, let's make sure we hire a non-Asian employee", that is the source of a lot of the umbrage with DEI efforts.

In my experience, opponents largely agree with the goals (more diverse viewpoints), but disagree with the methods (pandering in the best case, and preferential treatment by group in the worst case.)

You are correct that there is no inherent cost to learning about and bringing in different perspectives. There is a cost of the efforts to bring in those perspectives if they mean that I lose a job that I would otherwise have gained.

Moreover, an even bigger concern is that these decisions aren't being made based on perspective, but only on immutable identity (e.g. race, ethnicity, gender). In these cases, the cost is even greater, since one can't address the situation by bringing in more perspectives; if the company says "we need more non-Asian employees", it is a really big cost (and one you can't avoid) if you happen to be Asian, regardless of how many heterodox opinions you might otherwise bring.

Nobody I know opposes thegoals of DEI, but it's not hard to see how policies enacted which disadvantage people based on immutable characteristics might be reasonably considered unfair.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These politics only appeal to ~10% of the population anyway, and they aren't favored by a majority of any ethnicity. This stuff isn't mainstream because voters like it (which is why it never makes its way into any real laws), it's mainstream because the cultural and media elites like it and they don't have to trifle with a democratic process to impose it. Corporate DEI stuff is also useful to "prove" that an employer…

My understanding is that Corporate DEI is mostly bottom up, not top down.

It usually starts as an HR initiative & then ERGs are created as a means of fulfilling goals set by the HR departments. I wouldn’t really characterize it as bottom up, although I’m sure there are plenty of companies where C suite & other divisions didn’t want this to happen & it’s being used as political leverage against them.
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