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A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

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Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#81

Post by nradov »

robonerd wrote: post #46
sloreti wrote: post #27

Disappointing that an article like this wouldn’t mention one of the main reasons children are given less autonomy in the US: our built environment. The vast majority of our children grow up in neighborhoods in which one can’t easily be a pedestrian at any age. Low density communities, in which almost all trips have to be taken in cars, are of course not friendly to non-drivers. Japan builds dense, mixed use neighborh…

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

Many people trace the inflection point back to the kidnapping of Etan Patz in 1979. The case was highly publicized and made many parents afraid of child predators in a way they really hadn't been before. That case and a few others led to putting pictures of missing children on milk cartons so then the fear was in their faces every day.

https://crimereads.com/how-the-disappearance-of-etan-patz-ch...

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#82

Post by thaumasiotes »

gregjor wrote: post #26
johnzim wrote: post #20

As a parent, none of the risks are as profound as that of some other member of the public calling the police to inform on your “dangerous parenting”. I’ve deliberately chosen to live in a walkable part of the Bay Area in the hopes that my kids can be more independent when they get older, but I’m more worried about the social pushback than I am about their safety.

I let my three kids walk to school, the park, around the corner to friend’s houses. Neighbors complained to my face multiple times, and threatened to call CPS twice. My children all survived to adulthood. I was walking to school with other kids when I was four, no one had a problem with it then. Teaching kids to fear everyone and the world they live in doesn’t do them any good — it just causes anxiety.

When I was in 5th grade, I had a friend with bent legs, who walked with supports attached to his arms. (Well, gripped in his hands, but with a partial ring that went around the arm; I assume to make them easier to hold on to.)

The school considered us bad influences on each other - we got in trouble a lot, which hadn't been true before we knew each other. But his mother thought I was great, because one of the activities we did together was go for long walks around the neighborhood. She thought the exercise was beneficial, given his condition.

I can only imagine how she would have responded if someone had complained to the police that she was letting her son walk around unsupervised.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#83

Post by evv »

tempnow987 wrote: post #67

Not in the US they can't. "officials placed two brothers into foster care after one, 11, was found playing basketball alone in his own yard." He'd gotten home early from school and his parents came 90 minutes later. He was in his own yard. The family lost their children to foster care. Ironically in foster care ACTUAL abuse rates are pretty darn high! "When Cindy and Fred arrived home they were arrested for child neg…

Child abducted by CPS- I did not see the plot twist coming.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#85

Post by seabird »

jerkstate wrote: post #39
flakiness wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also about some collective trust/fantasy, in addition to the tolerance. For example, I don't think Tokyo is particularly safer than a (walkable) US city. But since people there collectively believe Japan is a safe country and are proud of it, they let their child go out. But I agree that the risk tolerance points too. I have talked to a handful of Japanese parents and none of them let their small kids go out wit…

> For example, I don't think Tokyo is particularly safer than a (walkable) US city on what do you base this opinion? I looked up a couple of crime stats sites and the assault and murder rates per capita in the US are like, 10x higher in the US than in Japan.

Average assault and murder rates are massively inflated by a handful of exceptional cities. St. Louis (usually highest murder rate in the US or close to it) is pushing 70 murders per 100k. That is roughly double the rate of Cleveland (rank 5). Cleveland has a murder rate over 10 times higher than a city of around ~40k people that I live fairly close to. However, another city (population ~45k) that is about a 20 minute drive away from the one I'm near has a murder rate over 15 times higher than the city I live near.

Crime is experienced incredibly unevenly in the US. I won't say much more past that because it's where the politics starts to kick in and I don't think that will add anything to the conversation.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#86

Post by gensym »

johnzim wrote: post #20

As a parent, none of the risks are as profound as that of some other member of the public calling the police to inform on your “dangerous parenting”. I’ve deliberately chosen to live in a walkable part of the Bay Area in the hopes that my kids can be more independent when they get older, but I’m more worried about the social pushback than I am about their safety.

Yep. I used to be park of a park advisory council in Chicago. At one meeting, police were there to field questions about park safety. One of the attendees mentioned their concern for the times they saw "unsupervised 10-year-olds" playing in the neighborhood park. The cop encouraged the person to call 911 when they observed that happening!

In Chicago, it's pretty much illegal to be a kid without an adult present in most places. In the Southern California suburb I live in now, it's better in that respect. Unfortunately, it's not walkable or bikeable outside of the housing development.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#87

Post by tshaddox »

robonerd wrote: post #46
sloreti wrote: post #27

Disappointing that an article like this wouldn’t mention one of the main reasons children are given less autonomy in the US: our built environment. The vast majority of our children grow up in neighborhoods in which one can’t easily be a pedestrian at any age. Low density communities, in which almost all trips have to be taken in cars, are of course not friendly to non-drivers. Japan builds dense, mixed use neighborh…

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

> It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development.

This is a good point, although I would like to see some data to know whether this is actually common, or whether it's merely a common perception. If you actually control for things like population density, demographics (most notably age distribution), traffic, road design, city design (distance to schools, playgrounds, etc.) do you see a clear pattern of reduction in the number of children playing freely outside?

I have no doubt that there are plenty of places where this has happened, but I also have anecdotes of places where this hasn't happened (at least in the area I grew up in since I was a kid in the 90s).

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#88

Post by elliekelly »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #54
sloreti wrote: post #27

Disappointing that an article like this wouldn’t mention one of the main reasons children are given less autonomy in the US: our built environment. The vast majority of our children grow up in neighborhoods in which one can’t easily be a pedestrian at any age. Low density communities, in which almost all trips have to be taken in cars, are of course not friendly to non-drivers. Japan builds dense, mixed use neighborh…

Absolutely correct. The USA worships the car's speed above the child's freedom.

This reminds me of "The Sacred Rat" short story (fair warning, this site is a bit of an eyesore): http://www.drabruzzi.com/sacred_rac.html

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#89

Post by elliekelly »

jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #15
compiler-guy wrote: post #6

A large component here is simply risk tolerance. Society's risk tolerance, especially for kids, has fallen pretty dramatically. This is probably related to just how many fewer kids US society has in general (births per woman has fallen in half since 1960, and it takes a culture some time to catch up). If you have fewer, then the individual ones become that much more valuable. Your attention and time is divided much l…

Its not just personal risk tolerance that plays into it either. I would let my kids largely run free but I know I would probably have to deal with CPS if I did so.

This seems like a bit of an urban myth? Or at least hugely overblown. How often does this really happen?

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#90

Post by gernb »

rafale wrote: post #58
Spellman wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In CA there's laws specifically against leaving a child in the car due to risk of overheating. There's no laws about leaving them at home alone. That being said, there have been lots of horror stories of other adults calling the cops out of concern for child "neglect." And this creates a huge hassle for the parents. Try to figure out our neighborhood's feelings on the topic, and obviously look into the Free Range Kid…

Politically speaking, it's also good to push back on any legislation or system where parents lose power on their kids education and upbringing, even in the name of their well-being. It's important as a society that we have autonomy and diversity in the upbringing of the next generation.

Unfortunately vocal people on both sides of the spectrum hate that. The people calling CPS hate it because they think parents are being negectful. Certain people hate it because they imagine kids getting indoctrinated into religions they don't like. I have several friends and families that were raised via home schooling or raised their kids homeschooled. All the kids are amazing, none of them had any religion involvment.
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