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Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

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Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#251

Post by trasz »

clucas wrote: post #228
trasz wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that you forget all the inconvenient facts - from American national guard murdering students in broad daylight, without any kind of punishment afterwards, to secret military kangaroo courts - and build your arguments on plain ignorance ("China has none of that").

It's silly to bring up Kent State in a discussion comparing openness to criticism between the US and China. Kent State is well documented, it's taught in school. Tiananmen Square (government troops murdering protesting students) is actively supressed in China. Yes, the US has done bad things. And some of those bad things have been forgotten. But if you want to find out about them... the government is not going to pre…

Tienanmen Square is taught in Chinese schools as well. There's a key difference however: people responsible for Tienanmen were punished, with Prime Minister spending the rest of his life in house arrest. Those responsible for Kent State didn't. And that's a common pattern with "bad things" happening in US.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#252

Post by trasz »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #186
trasz wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me remind you that a number of US states is fighting to introduce censorship of education, because apparently teaching objective truth is "anti-american".

And yet you can openly criticize those actions, mobilize people to fight against it, file lawsuits, create and distribute alternative resources to continue to educate about whatever is being censored, and no one will stop you.

Same in China. Your point being?

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#253

Post by trasz »

BobbyJo wrote: post #215
trasz wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If we put Iraqis in prison because of their religion and ethnicity, there would have been millions locked up Oh, but you only put there those that you didn't kill in the first place. China, on the other hand, isn't exterminating those people up front.

> China, on the other hand, isn't exterminating those people up front. That is an interesting argument. I guess delayed death is slightly less bad. Fair enough.

Incarcerating someone for a few months is "delayed death"?

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#254

Post by trasz »

zthrowaway wrote: post #162
shkkmo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am absolutely sick of this attitude. People disagreeing with you does not make them a Russian bot or a Chinese shill. Making that accusation baselessly degrades the conversation while contributing nothing.

Everyone has successfully turned this thread into a discussion about the West. Purposeful distraction.

Because this discussion comes from US trying to manufacture consent for another war.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#255

Post by trasz »

dirtyid wrote: post #247
duairc wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a completely fair question to ask what is the Chinese justification. I found this documentary[1] by CGTN about the recent history of extremism and terrorist attacks in Xinjiang to be useful in outlining some of the context for this. These terrorist attacks were a real problem and have resulted in the deaths of over 1000 civilians (including Uyghurs). China's argument is basically their re-education "camps" are a…

At end of the day repressing restive frontier minority that accounts for less than 1% of population for domestic security (especially terrorism) is the "correct" political decision for CCP. There isn't any feasible calculus for not taming XJ (or Tibet or HK or TW). The real answer is they were left alone for too long due difficult access (whether by geography or politics), granted privileges in hopes they would not s…

>Even the most pessimistic Zenz

Zenz is literally _the_ source of anti-Chinese propaganda. He's the main person behind "Chinese Tribunal", which... well, a private NGO, operating without any legal basis or oversight, calling themselves a "tribunal", think what you will.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#256

Post by monocasa »

tablespoon wrote: post #249
monocasa wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feds shut down the entire facility after the allegations came out. It wasn't a case of one doctor.

> The feds shut down the entire facility after the allegations came out. It wasn't a case of one doctor. Well the hysterectomy thing was the one doctor (and the facility failing at its duty to properly oversee him). However, it wouldn't surprise me if there were other issues there as well.

Habitually performing major surgery without informed consent is a structural problem that can't be pinned on a single doctor. An incredible amount of checks have to break down to get to that point.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#257

Post by monocasa »

nukemaster wrote: post #243
monocasa wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that's what the CCP says about the Uighurs.

I think you should try rereading my comment.

Perhaps instead you should restate your argument in different words if you think you're being misunderstood.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#258

Post by fersc »

monocasa wrote: post #241
tablespoon wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ICE has been accused of performing large numbers of forced sterilizations within camps in US borders. > https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-... The hysterectomies weren't US or ICE policy , they were the result of poor oversight of one contract doctor who was committing malpractice. https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/ice-irwin-hysterectomies... > ICE stopped sending immigrant women to Amin…

The feds shut down the entire facility after the allegations came out. It wasn't a case of one doctor.

And did the feds shut down the facility due to public outcry?

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#259

Post by fersc »

logicchains wrote: post #53
sofixa wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when does it take a pro-Western stance to condemn a war, terrible atrocities and genocides? What, non-Westerners lack a moral compass or compassion?

>Since when does it take a pro-Western stance to condemn a war It takes a pro-Western stance to condemn Russia for invading Ukraine under false pretense but celebrate America invading Iraq under false pretenses (a war in which literally hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War ).

Just like how the Vietnam troops were celebrated when they came home? (they weren't celebrated they were shunned) https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-...

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#260

Post by incomingpain »

dirtyid wrote: post #248
incomingpain wrote: post #199

The thing that confuses me is that China's muslim neighbours(ish) like Saudis, Pakistan or Kazakhstan support China in what they are doing. There is greater incentive for those 3 countries to care what China is doing to fellow Muslims and they don't oppose it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps

> don't oppose it. Formally they actively support it - they endorse PRC "deradicalization" policy since they suffer from extremist problems themselves. This isn't complicated, plurality of the world does not buy US/western genocide framing - they see PRC policy as relatively peaceful counter-insurgency and actual nation building effort for restive peoples which these regions have to deal with in spades. It's absolute…

>Formally they actively support it - they endorse PRC "deradicalization" policy since they suffer from extremist problems themselves.

The USA just spent 20 years in the middle east 'deradicalizing' or at least that's the going claim from both these regimes. The USA doubts China because they know they were oh so wrong about that claim, not that they admit it.

99 terrorists on the wall, drone strike one, 105 terrorists on the wall.

>This isn't complicated, plurality of the world does not buy US/western genocide framing - they see PRC policy as relatively peaceful counter-insurgency and actual nation building effort for restive peoples which these regions have to deal with in spades.

I wonder how much the US/western biased media is really the one at fault here.

>It's absolutely in their interest for XJ model to work, and perhaps be adoptable through a neat package like Huawei smart cities. West exports democracy that ultimately destabilize vs PRC exports security for serenity. Of course latter is preferable.

This is interesting to me. I feel like you're saying something different. In a way you're saying democracy is unstable and PRC communist control with security is serenity.

This shanghai situation... brink of a peasant's revolt. Some crazy stuff going on there and the government decided to flipflop on an ultralockdown. The original reason for ultralockdown has actually only gotten worse. This is far from serenity in my books.

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