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Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

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Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#141

Post by cabirum »

adventured wrote: post #129
danielheath wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a refutation. You aren't replying to an attempt to refute something. You're replying to an expression of shock at the behavior on display (specifically, people claiming - in a thread about Chinese torture camps - that we should not talk about them, because we weren't talking about American torture camps, so it would be hypocritical to talk about the Chinese ones). I'm generally in agreement that this isn't g…

The insanity of an emotionally out of control mob of people pretending it's not a radically greater moral crime to torture millions of innocent people, than it is to torture a thousand people. It's the scale difference between the US blowing up a wedding party by accident as a moral crime and Russia raping and murdering their way through Bucha or Mariupol. The emotionalist mob would proclaim they're the same thing.

As if the wedding party incident was a single, isolated case. True, the scale of destruction in Iraq, Afganistan and dozen other countries is nothing like Ukraine military shelled and shot their own civilians then staged a photo-op.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#142

Post by nukemaster »

dundarious wrote: post #137
NmAmDa wrote: post #67

It is clear that many people (sometimes with good intentions) would bring this logic to any discussion about this matter. . China is having their Muslim population put into camps and they live in a horrible injustice situation. They are targeted because of their religion /ethnicity. Chinese government saying that US is being hypocrite because they did so and so in Iraq and whatever happened after 9/11 from abuses..et…

I think a major resentment people have when they see these "moral stands" by the US, is that in its literal present day actions, neither US nor China "stand up against oppression in general not just when you can benefit", but also, China does not rhetorically claim to do so -- the US does make that false claim. The easy present day case to back up this claim that the US does not "stand up against oppression..." is Ye…

But we do try to make things right for US citizens (and often foreigners) inside our own borders. What happens inside your borders is way more important than outside.

I don't think what we've done in the middle east is remotely good but it's substantially different.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#143

Post by lenkite »

BobbyJo wrote: post #128
lenkite wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are far more than 1000 Islamists in the US. Not sure where you're pulling that statement from. I am responding to this statement: "You are put there for your ethnicity and religion, (no suspected crimes are needed for detainment), despite being a Chinese citizen.". I am sure you are aware that there were no suspected crimes needed for detainment in Gitmo and the US government said: "It Can Indefinitely Detain…

> I am sure you are aware that there were no suspected crimes needed for detainment in Gitmo and the US government said: "It Can Indefinitely Detain Anyone — Even U.S. Citizens". My point was that didn't happen. If we were putting people there solely for their religion and ethnicity, it'd be much more than a thousand. It would be millions... like in Xinjiang. > No, not as an individual and I will concede that to you.…

> My point was that didn't happen. If we were putting people there solely for their religion and ethnicity, it'd be much more than a thousand. It would be millions... like in Xinjiang.

Tens of thousands passed through Abu Ghraib too in Iraq. A truckload of torture and prisoner abuse done to people of only ONE ethnicity. People lost limbs in prison. No one in the US administration paid for these crimes against humanity.

Some folks in the US govt who were in explicit favour of hard intervention in Iraq and who were deeply influential in igniting the Iraq war are the same ones criticising China now. (Hint: Under Secretary of State). So, yes, it is definitely sanctimonious and ridiculous hypocrisy.

Not you personally, but I assumed you were supporting the US government in this stance. If not, I apologize.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#145

Post by jollofricepeas »

wefarrell wrote: post #116
sschueller wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

"Let's dismiss allegations of systematic ethnic cleansing because a US helicopter killed a group of armed civilians in a warzone in 2007"

For the record…

China also harvests organs of their prison population (including Xinjiang).

- https://youtu.be/RH0F75tpD_A

- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve...

Either way instead of this US vs China debate, the real HN conversation should be how do we hack the humanity psyche to stop our societal need to oppress minorities?

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#146

Post by adventured »

blueflow wrote: post #124
BobbyJo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooof, if you're German, then, by your own logic, you don't really have room to speak on the atrocities of other countries... no?

Its also racist to make people held accountable for their ancestors. This is what the Nazis did to the Jews, and the US teached germany the hard way that it is not right. How comes you didn't learn that lesson? Germany got the Nürnberger Trials, the US (clarification: politicians) was never held accountable for anything.

> Its also racist to make people held accountable for their ancestors.

That's incorrect. It's collectivist. Racism is a specific subset of collectivism.

German isn't a race, despite what Hitler & Co wanted to believe.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#149

Post by ATsch »

IncRnd wrote: post #131
ATsch wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, it's not an occupation, it's a "perpetual lease". That I happen to enforce with my army. And we didn't steal that land, they kindly gave it to us. When we held a gun up to their heads and made them sign a document they did not understand. Oh, and these aren't slaves, they're workers. Who happen to be on an unbreakable contract. (and also, how could I forget, "these Uighurs aren't prisoners, they're just people w…

Please quit trolling. Your comment is disconnected from anything I wrote.

The point is that some party insisting that they have some legal contract giving them permission to do something does not mean that contract is legitimate or voluntary.

The remainder of the comment illustrates some very obvious examples of this from the past.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#150

Post by danielheath »

cabirum wrote: post #132
danielheath wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a refutation. You aren't replying to an attempt to refute something. You're replying to an expression of shock at the behavior on display (specifically, people claiming - in a thread about Chinese torture camps - that we should not talk about them, because we weren't talking about American torture camps, so it would be hypocritical to talk about the Chinese ones). I'm generally in agreement that this isn't g…

A post about Chinese torture camps makes an impression that torture camps are exclusively a Chinese thing. It would be fair to mention other countries involved in similar behavior. The post could have been "torture camps are bad" piece. It is instead focuses on "China is bad" propaganda

> A post about Chinese torture camps makes an impression that torture camps are exclusively a Chinese thing.

Yes, to an audience who have read nothing else on the topic. The people here for this discussion are - by definition - people who read about and/or discuss these topics.

As a discussion thread for a news story (and not, say a textbook for an introduction to world powers and their deeds), discussing tangentially-related events draws diminishing returns.

"Torture camps are bad" is an essay you could ask a high-schooler to write. It's neither news nor informative.

"We are obtaining new evidence that the government of China is running torture camps" manages to be both news and informative.

"US government runs torture camps" is neither news (has something changed?) nor informative (it's been well known for years).

Publishing a comparative treatment of national misdeeds might also manage to be informative; statistical modeling of the harms done by various governments, for instance.

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