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Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

politics.salon.com

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Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#81

Post by brudgers »

jhamburger wrote: post #74
brudgers wrote: post #10

[edit because absurdity is apparently not obvious] By the author's logic,[/edit] perhaps people should consider putting their children up for adoption, too. However, I suspect that moving to Silicon Valley would be more likely to provide them with opportunities for success.

The author's logic isn't "Steve Jobs took LSD, you should too", it's "Steve Jobs took LSD and credits it as a crucially important intellectual experience in his life, so maybe you should too." I'm pretty sure Jobs didn't say the same thing about being adopted.

The author's argument is more along the lines of:

  P1 = Steve Jobs was a success.
  P2 = Steve Jobs took LSD.
  -------
  Therefore US drug policy is bad.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#82

Post by cppsnob »

ldh wrote: post #56
sjtgraham wrote: post #13

Jobs was one of a kind, and to attribute his achievements even in part, to hallucinogens is a fallacy. If it was true, there would be more people like Steve Jobs in the world today. I think Steve was wrong on this, as he was wrong on other things, i.e. that pancreatic cancer could be treated with a special diet. Maybe if Steve sought medical attention earlier he would still be with us today changing the world.

The man himself asserted that certain experiences are integral to his outlook, and by extension a certain measure of his success. Maybe you don't like how he came by those experiences - so what? What fallacy is being committed here? I wouldn't conflate his position on hallucinogens with his opinion on alternative medicine. He doesn't have to be either all right or all wrong.

> What fallacy is being committed here?

Concluding that he wouldn't been the same successful person without doing LSD. There's no evidence of causation. That's the fallacy.

I'm not sure why so many people are excited about this, it seems like a cheap pro-legalization play in light of his death.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#83

Post by Jage »

jinushaun wrote: post #11
geogra4 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College students are surrounded by drugs. They flow so freely that it seems like prohibition isn't really working. People who want drugs can get them. I don't do them either, nor do I have the desire but it just seems like only the poor and disadvantaged drug users go to jail.

Exactly. If people want drugs, they can get it, but not everyone does. We've already reached equilibrium drug consumption, which is why it's ludicrous to believe that drug use will skyrocket once it is legalized. The current drug policy only serves to fill up jails with those not in the middle class.

I support legalization for ideaological reasons, but that doesn't at all sound accurate to me

Drug use will almost definitely sky rocket if drugs are legalized, at least initially. We can't really say what will happen, say, 5-10 years after, because legalization in this country is unprecedented.

But ask most users if they'd use more if it was legal, and you'll get your answer. Ask some fence sitters who are too scared to try drugs if they'd use currently illicit drugs if it was legal, and you'll get your answer

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#84

Post by ldh »

cppsnob wrote: post #82
ldh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The man himself asserted that certain experiences are integral to his outlook, and by extension a certain measure of his success. Maybe you don't like how he came by those experiences - so what? What fallacy is being committed here? I wouldn't conflate his position on hallucinogens with his opinion on alternative medicine. He doesn't have to be either all right or all wrong.

> What fallacy is being committed here? Concluding that he wouldn't been the same successful person without doing LSD. There's no evidence of causation. That's the fallacy. I'm not sure why so many people are excited about this, it seems like a cheap pro-legalization play in light of his death.

> Concluding that he wouldn't been the same successful person without doing LSD. There's no evidence of causation. That's the fallacy.

Who's making that conclusion? As far as I can tell, nobody's attributing his success entirely to LSD. I'm sure he'd have been successful without it. But a person is a product of their experiences, and he plainly states that LSD factored strongly into it. You can disbelieve him, but I don't know why one would have trouble believing that.

I tend to agree that this is only getting so much play right now because of the Jobs connection, which is getting annoying for some, but that doesn't make the points being made any less valid.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#85

Post by Enthusiastic »

The apple logo itself could be taken as a symbol of accepting psychedelic insight. A bite of the forbidden apple.

When talking about Steve Jobs and LSD, we should consider the work of Myron Stolaroff and his associates. LSD can be used in anything from satanic orgies to mystical new age woo to CIA mind control experiments to creative technical problem solving. The branch of the psychedelic family tree SJ plucked his apple from is related to Myron Stolaroff's work on creative and technical problem solving.

Article by Myron Stolaroff on using psychedelics wisely: http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/writings/stolaroff_using...

Podcast featuring early psychedelic researcher James Fadiman "Using Psychedelics to solve technical and scientific problems" http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=3226003&song=042-Fad...

Article mostly about Al Hubbard (fascinating reading in it's own right), which connects Steve Jobs to Myron Stolaroff's advocacy of LSD among engineers and technologists: http://kikoshouse.blogspot.com/2009/10/alfred-captain-al-hub...

And finally, a 1960s study about LSD and creative problem solving (by Stolaroff, Fadiman, et al) "Psychedelic Agents in Creative Problem Solving: A pilot study" http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/7609docid6734

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#86

Post by drivebyacct2 »

tptacek wrote: post #77
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #23

I will never understand how HN manages to be so (maybe relatively) anti-drug, even in a latent fashion on this topic. I do, not, understand this sentiment. For all of the things that HN does not take at face value, there is a blind acceptance of the "drugs are evil" viewpoint espoused (often exclusively in the face of their own studies, dozens of times, over 20 years ) by the United States Government. Downvote within…

It seems plain to me that drug opinion on HN ranges from "don't care" to "aggressively advocating legalization". Are you sure you're not just spoiling for a fight? (It's ok; we all get bored sometimes). Your comment captures nicely one of the things I hate most about out-of-place political stories on HN. There isn't enough diversity of opinion here to have a real debate, so basically what we get is a competition of w…

After coming back to this after a couple hours, I realize that I may have misinterpreted what appears to be a vocal minority based on comments that I'm seeing (rather annoyingly actually) buried.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#87

Post by InclinedPlane »

rick888 wrote: post #46
melling wrote: post #6

I've never used illegal drugs, and I've never had a desire. However, the one problem we do have by keeping certain drugs illegal is that Americans are destroying countries, like Mexico, where a week doesn't by where a drug gang hasn't killed someone. Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering that everyone w…

"Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering that everyone who wants to take drugs still does. If certain drugs do have harmful effects then at least the effects will be mostly limited to the people who take them." Mexico is already corrupt without the drugs. Making them legal will give the cartels even more…

Ending prohibition would allow the drug supply chain to operate openly, which would tend to result in supply migrating away from undesirable sources. Indeed, the end of alcohol prohibition in the US brought a massive curtailing of the operations of bootleggers in the US. Today the monetary support of violent gangs by way of alcohol bootlegging revenues is essentially non-existent.

As far as government-run health care serving as a lever to control individual behavior, that sounds like a good reason to avoid government-run health care. When the state tries to regulate individual happiness or well being the result is invariably tragedy and disaster. In a free society the government serves society. When society serves government you have tyranny.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#88

Post by billpg »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #23

I will never understand how HN manages to be so (maybe relatively) anti-drug, even in a latent fashion on this topic. I do, not, understand this sentiment. For all of the things that HN does not take at face value, there is a blind acceptance of the "drugs are evil" viewpoint espoused (often exclusively in the face of their own studies, dozens of times, over 20 years ) by the United States Government. Downvote within…

Personally...

  A. Don't do any dangerous drugs, except under a doctor's guidence.   
  B. I don't want anyone who breaks rule A to be jailed.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#89

Post by cbs »

wheels wrote: post #15

Incidentally, despite the oft quoted, "Bill Gates would be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once", Bill Gates basically did admit to taking LSD in a 1994 interview: PLAYBOY: Ever take LSD? GATES: My errant youth ended a long time ago. PLAYBOY: What does that mean? GATES: That means there were things I did under the age of 25 that I ended up not doing subsequently. PLAYBOY: One LSD story involved you staring at a…

Incidentally, despite the oft quoted, "Bill Gates would be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once", Bill Gates basically did admit to taking LSD in a 1994 interview:

As with most drugs, those who don't wear the uniform of the subculture associated the drug (or at least strongly show the personality traits their users like to attribute to the drug) are assumed to never have done them.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#90

Post by rwmj »

ldh wrote: post #44
rwmj wrote: post #8

I've taken LSD and 'shrooms a few times, and while I can understand what Jobs is saying, I think he was wrong. I had mystical experiences where I thought I understood that the whole world was connected together, and I was connected to the world, and other deep insights. I think this was just brain-addled delusion, not any insight into how things really are. That said, I fully support these things being legal, and (fo…

I think it's a mistake to focus too much on the mystical "revelation" angle that some people use to frame the benefits of psychedelics. I have no trouble believing that the positive outcomes people get from psychadelics are real while rejecting the notion that there's some obscure mystical reality that's being tapped into. I think the "brain-addled delusions" you describe can be appreciated as rare and useful shifts…

I don't disagree at all. As I said I think it may be worthwhile for some people to take LSD. It would be so much better if it were legal and we could take a serious look at how to reduce the harmful part of taking it, and also look at perhaps genetic or other factors which mean that some people really shouldn't be taking it.
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