When people are starving and have nothing left to lose, change happens.
An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
281–290 of 559 posts
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#282Kind of crazy how sentimental and emotional the response is with barely any actual discussion going on about the merits of this on a grand scale. Yes, stories about people's dogs and temporary economic depression are awful. The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths, probably tens of millions of cases of long term disabilities, and overall kept the economy going. It's w…
The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths Stopped or just delayed deaths? At some point they are going to have to stop the lockdowns, and Covid will still be there, ready to continue spreading.
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Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths We have highly effective vaccines available globally. Even in the twisted American healthcare system I can walk into any CVS or Walgreens and get a free mRNA vaccine, 47 times over, anytime I want to. There is no good argument in favor of China's lock-down policies in the present, post vaccine availability. Unless of course t…
Western mrna vaccine proven equally useless at preventing spread which overwhelms underdeveloped PRC medical system. Living with covid wasn't a choice after vaccines failed 1 of 2 epidimeology goals. Second being preventing severe disease which Chinese vaccines are almost as good at. Covid zero is simply superior to depending on vaccines if it can be maintained.
They've worked spectacularly well at preventing death. It means health systems arent being overwhelmed even when the disease is infecting people at record levels. Chinese vaccines may not have been particularly effective so that why China has to rely on lockdowns again even for Omicron, but other countries that have mRNA vaccines are virtually back to normal now.
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
A hard lockdown being needed at this late stage in the pandemic signals poor decision making more than anything. Why aren't their elderly widely vaccinated, and why are they still relying on their significantly worse domestically made vaccine?
They are not vaccinated because they did not want. i am wondering about your question.
> They are not vaccinated because they did not want.
That is a perfect answer on the individual level. For example: Why is Bob’s uncle not vacinated? He didn’t want to.
On a population level it is insuficient. When you are asking why only X% of a large population is vaccinated, you can look at larger forces at play.
Is the availablr vacine working? Rationally is the risk of getting the vacine worth the benefit of it based on what we know? ( This is the bedrock of the question. )
Assuming it is worth it, are the people who have this information able to communicate this in a credible way to the population? If not what made the expert not credible? What could have been done differently for them to be more credible in the eye of the population? ( This is equally important! Having a good working vacine, which is not trusted because the system squandered away trust is tragic. )
Was the logistics of the vaccination well executed? ( Less people will get vaccinated if its not convenient for them. )
Are there any other factors which affected the vacination rate?
These are all valid questions, and they are all enclosed in the original one: why only X% of this population is vacinated?
> i am wondering about your question.
That is a good thing, but it sounds like maybe you are insinuating something? If not sorry for the misunderstanding. If yes it would be better if you could spell out what you are wondering so we can discuss it.
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#285With omicron isn’t a zero Covid policy a fools errand? As the virus mutates into ever more infectious variants a zero-Covid policy becomes impossibe.
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lockdowns achieve exactly what they are meant to achieve: they stop the spread of disease. This is mainly aimed at avoiding uncontrolled surges and collapse of the healthcare system and is effective for that. However, indeed, this must be 'step 1' and combined with a broader strategy of vaccination and controlled exposure to the virus otherwise you only end up with an infinite cycle of lockdowns. One issue in China i…
With such high vaccination rates in many places why didn’t we see a corresponding reduction in Covid infections? Why are vaccinated people getting infected?
You’re asking the wrong question, vaccinations don’t stop the infections themselves. Why China still needs lockdowns, compared to the west? Because sinovac is basically useless.
> Against the original virus BioNTech was 95% effective compared to 50.7% for Sinovac.
https://www.otandp.com/blog/covid-19-vaccine-comparison-whic...
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#287Kind of crazy how sentimental and emotional the response is with barely any actual discussion going on about the merits of this on a grand scale. Yes, stories about people's dogs and temporary economic depression are awful. The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths, probably tens of millions of cases of long term disabilities, and overall kept the economy going. It's w…
> The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths, probably tens of millions of cases of long term disabilities, and overall kept the economy going. I think it's a little disingenious to use the word "stopped" in that way. It would be far more accurate to have said "delayed". Maybe we should all refresh ourselves on what the most common causes of death are by age group. For…
Agreed, Omicron is almost as infectious as measles, and everyone will likely be exposed to it. Combine this with the negative externalities of GDP decline and other effects, and the picture is pretty straightforward.
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are already doing that and it will take some time. However no vaccine is 100% effective against mortality. Bear in mind that China had almost no covid deaths post-2020. Any covid death now is considered a failure as it would have been "preventable" under a strictly zero covid policy. This is why the figures out of China is looking too good to be true right now with 150K+ recent cases, very low intensive care adm…
> They are already doing that and it will take some time. Really? The data I've seen (googling and on social media) suggest that there is no change in the vaccination rate.
MoH data is a bit sparse on detail but still mentions 300K+ doses of vaccine administered daily.
http://www.nhc.gov.cn/xcs/yqjzqk/list_gzbd.shtml
The economist has some aged grouped vaccination data from the end of March that actually shows pretty good vaccine coverage for the 60-79 age group. I couldn't find a source but the numbers are consistent with a prior press release.
https://www.economist.com/china/2022/04/02/why-so-many-elder...
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
With such high vaccination rates in many places why didn’t we see a corresponding reduction in Covid infections? Why are vaccinated people getting infected?
The vaccines do not prevent infection but reduce the ultimate harm of the infection.
This position leads to inevitable follow up question: if vaccination reduces only personal risks, and does not prevent infection spread, why forcing it on anyone? If a person is unwilling to vaccinate and accepts the higher risk of a negative outcome, let him decide for himself, no?
Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even better was the government statement “TraceTogether is used for infection control and isolation only”. Then a year later they used it to solve a crime. When called out on the prior statement said “oh, well, we’d only use it for serious crimes”. They then pass a bill legalizing using it for criminal investigations.
Sounds good to me. Singapore is the only country you could walk around with 10k hanging out of your back pocket and no one will touch you. Friend left their phone in mall bathroom and 4 hours later when she went back it was still there.
You can do that pretty much in Saudi Arabia as well.