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An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

jaapgrolleman.com

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Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#241
post #173
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China also likely lies about their numbers so it's not likely we'd know the real death count. According to their stats, they had covid 4 covid deaths in all of 2021. This puts them at the number 2 best results spot. The issue here being that all the top stats spots for least deaths are from island countries, which china is not.

China is on Earth, not in some other solar system. If their excess deaths per capita were a fraction of the numbers in the West, there would be no way to hide it.

2020: missing / human trafficking in China is ~1million per year https://www.rfa.org/cantonese/news/human-trafficking-0209202...

2000: ~ 40million unregistered woman in china https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830941/

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#242
post #212
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly that logic doesn’t work here, though it’s tempting. There’s a portion of the population that refused vaccines, due to a combination of factors including misinformation. Omicron going wild would put millions of elderly people into the hospitals, jamming up the healthcare system and leading to millions more excess deaths.

China reports almost as high a vaccination rate as Singapore which has vaccinated 97% of its eligible population.

I forgot which numbers I saw, but yeah their overall rate is high. The problem is that so many of the remaining unvaccinated are elderly, so if they start getting sick they’ll get it bad and overload the system.

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#243
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This situation in Shanghai sounds pretty far from an ideal society, it sounds downright horrifying

Certainly it is awful in Shanghai right now, but it will be for a limited time period, and the benefits (of zero Covid) will out weigh this cost of this investment in public health.

It doesn't work that way. Covid will always find its way in China since it's not a locked down island, so the pain from a zero covid policy won't be short lived at all. And that's not considering hard to track pockets of the virus within the country.

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#244
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Gated communities whose guards become jailers. Left Singapore after 10 years because of this. If you go into a shopping mall you need to "check in" fully authenticated with picture ID, "ambassadors" photograph any perceived violations, work from home is the standard. With the never-changing weather that was hard on the mental health. Surely, the rules have relaxed now, but that wasn't a fun experience.

There was no picture ID “ambassadors”. You either checked in using TraceTogether app, or your TraceTogether token. Before the app and token was mandatory you had to use your ID card. The reason my wife and I left after 10 years is security due to being rejected for PR and the company I work for laying off everyone to close the office. So we moved to Taiwan.

Even better was the government statement “TraceTogether is used for infection control and isolation only”.

Then a year later they used it to solve a crime. When called out on the prior statement said “oh, well, we’d only use it for serious crimes”. They then pass a bill legalizing using it for criminal investigations.

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#245
post #160

Kind of crazy how sentimental and emotional the response is with barely any actual discussion going on about the merits of this on a grand scale. Yes, stories about people's dogs and temporary economic depression are awful. The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths, probably tens of millions of cases of long term disabilities, and overall kept the economy going. It's w…

The lockdown policy was successful in these aspects before, but it’s very unclear if it can still work with omicron.

Indeed, and success/failure may give us an indication of how much more inherently contagious Omicron actually is, versus how much of our spread has been due to vaccine evasion and restriction relaxation.

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#246
Based in Shanghai since 2014, I can share some details on why it feels so unbearable to be here right now.

Firstly, the totalitarian government have never been good at communicating anything except propaganda. So on one hand we're inundated with "Go Shanghai!" and how brave volunteers distribute food, on the other hand, we're completely in the dark about what's going on. Goalposts are being moved daily, rumors proliferate, and things change every day, adding a lot of stress to an already suboptimal situation.

Second, I can confirm that the food situation is extremely bad. We are a family of two, and always been kind of preppers, so we had many bags of rice, pasta, dehydrated veg, frozen meats in our large fridge. Chinese society, en masse, is much more used to just ordering food daily. Many people never cook. It's cheaper this way (though of course the quality varies). Bigger families with aunties who can cook just used to pop by the local wet market daily and get a bag of fresh produce. Many households might not even have a fridge at all, or have a small one.

The government was saying that "there will be no lockdown", and when the lockdown became imminent, people barely had two days to stock up. Queues, fights, empty shelves everywhere. More stress.

A lot of people in our community do not have any food left, and we've received two government issued "rations" so far (in 12 days of lockdown): one with 5 tomatoes, and one with 3 pounds of chicken drumsticks, 3 potatoes, 1 head of cauliflower, and a bunch of rotten lettuce. If we did not stock up, we would be starving right now. We donated quite a bit of food to our neighbors already, and many people are actually very close to having no food at all. Getting a delivery is almost impossible, group orders organized by compounds are often ridiculously overpriced, and not always work out. Scams are emerging.

Thirdly, I understand the author's frustration with the guards ("baoan"). Those people never had any formal power, but now they "run things" and, for many, the newly obtained power went to their heads. Violence and abuse is abound. We have PCR tests every 1-2 days, sometimes at 6am, some compounds at 3am. People dragged from their beds and forced to stand in queues.

How would you respond to all that?

Yes, it has some potential to save lives, but if it was communicated better, if we had more time to prepare, and they could still run food deliveries, nobody would complain that much. It's terribly mismanaged, and even after we "open up", I will strongly reconsider staying here. Omicron will return, and I do not want to be here for the next (and next, and next) lockdown.

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#247

Based in Shanghai since 2014, I can share some details on why it feels so unbearable to be here right now. Firstly, the totalitarian government have never been good at communicating anything except propaganda. So on one hand we're inundated with "Go Shanghai!" and how brave volunteers distribute food, on the other hand, we're completely in the dark about what's going on. Goalposts are being moved daily, rumors prolif…

No post body was provided.

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#248

Kind of crazy how sentimental and emotional the response is with barely any actual discussion going on about the merits of this on a grand scale. Yes, stories about people's dogs and temporary economic depression are awful. The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths, probably tens of millions of cases of long term disabilities, and overall kept the economy going. It's w…

There are definitely suicides in lockdown, old people dying because of being refused entry to hospitals, starving etc. If you’re taking in account of weak fatality of Omicron I’m not sure which decision would have caused more deaths.

> weak fatality of Omicron

In the US at least, Omicron has killed significantly more people than Delta.

A somewhat lower mortality rate has been more than compensated for by a high infection rate.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/omicron-wav...

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#249
post #202
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no magic money tree. It took a while for the effects to spread to the whole of the economy - perhaps because people were in lockdown and limited in their ability to spend money - but throughout the western world people's incomes have been dropping in real inflation-adjusted terms. There's no way that they couldn't; a large chunk of the economy was shut down and producing nothing, so there's just plain less…

$2000 one time checks are not what is causing inflation. Extended unemployment insurance... I doubt it. Inflation right now is happening because logistics are messed up. Yeah, turns out that when things get messy then the price of things go up, cuz it's harder to get things done.

You’re way understating things. It was an injection of hundreds of billions of cash into the economy.

Re: An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

#250

Kind of crazy how sentimental and emotional the response is with barely any actual discussion going on about the merits of this on a grand scale. Yes, stories about people's dogs and temporary economic depression are awful. The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths, probably tens of millions of cases of long term disabilities, and overall kept the economy going. It's w…

Excuse me, you really want to discuss grand scale policy merits while they can't/won't distribute enough food to prevent people starving to death?
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