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The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

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Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#141

Post by jefurii »

the_af wrote: post #69
yike321123 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather…

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently us…

Just because "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" isn't radical any more doesn't make it any less true.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#142

Post by giraffe_lady »

pmoriarty wrote: post #106
nathias wrote: post #93

Gibson's failiure was the failiure of punk in general, it was too cool and not edgy enough and was easily incorporated into mainstream.

Is that a failure or a success?

success if you're trying to make money failure if you're trying to make change

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#143

Post by the_af »

glenstein wrote: post #90
the_af wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "as I think parent commenter does" Point of correction: I'm trying to convey what Gibson said . If there's a generalization, it's not mine but his. The guy invented cyberpunk, so I think he has a right to holding very strong opinions about it. I do tend to agree with Gibson, but I also like the aesthetic and I'm content reading and looking at cyberpunk, as long as it's not too lazy.

And my point was, and is, that I don't think he's making the point you seem to think he is making. And sure, he's got every right to be opinionated, but you're not quoting or citing anything (although I understand you're referencing a tweet of his re: Cyberpunk 2077 and are referencing an interview), so what we are working with here are extrapolations that you and I are attributing to him.

Fair enough. I'm struggling right now to find the exact interview where he said many of the things I'm probably misquoting him about.

I'll look harder later ;)

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#144

Post by TremendousJudge »

Loughla wrote: post #79
pmoriarty wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's as lazy as it gets, and definitely not punk." Reading is not very punk, though arguing what punk is is definitely punk.

I would argue that reading, today, absolutely is punk. When the main-stream is delivered at a sixth grade level, in 15 second sound bites with talking heads or funny dances behind it. . . what is more punk that being extraordinarily well-read?

>what is more punk that being extraordinarily well-read

Having recently been to several punk rock shows (read: damp basement noise fests), I'd say: having a blue collar job, being against "the system", doing copious amounts of cocaine and speed on their time off, and having their entire body blasted with tattoos such as a hand flipping you off, a trash can overflowing with garbage, and many insults. I thought this particular kind of people didn't exist anymore, but no, they're still alive and moshing in the basements of most cities.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#145

Post by mindcrime »

criddell wrote: post #107
ychompinator wrote: post #13

A great and terrible book, Gibson repeatedly throwing you in to mountains of not yet explained language and concepts before dragging you out of confusion a chapter later is frustrating and tiresome, however I could not help coming back for more. I regret nothing.

I have to read his books twice. The first time I just plow through, confused the entire time. The second pass is where I can enjoy it, but there are still a lot of times where I read a sentence and struggle with parsing it.

Gibson's works definitely demand multiple reads, IMO. I have read Neuromancer around 5 times now, and I'd say I "get it" a little bit more each time I read it. Even now, 30+ years after I read it the first time, it still fascinates on a re-read.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#146

Post by mmaunder »

sneak wrote: post #108
mmaunder wrote: post #68

I’m constantly amazed at how Metaverse aficionados quote Snow Crash and and other 1990s works as cornerstones of cyberspace, when Gibson invented the term and Neuromancer was written in 1984. Gibson is the original. The passage where Case connects to the matrix (also a Gibson term) again for the first time once his nervous system is repaired is heartbreakingly beautiful. I relate to it as a young phone phreak growing…

To be honest, the descriptions of the metaverse are the parts of Neuromancer that hold up least well. The dirtbags, crime, sex, and drugs are all still perfect, and I imagine will remain so.

They're a 38 year old metaphor.

Neil Stephenson's Smartwheels don't exist either, and we still don't have "professional road surfers", but that doesn't make Snow Crash any less relevant:

"Smartwheels use sonar, laser range finding and millimeter wave radar to identify mufflers and other debris. Each one consists of a hub with many tiny spokes. Each spoke telescopes into five sections. On the end is a squat foot, rubber tread on the bottom, swiveling on a ball joint. As the wheel rolls, the feet plant themselves one at a time, almost glomming into one continuous tire. If you surf over a bump, the spokes contract to roll over it. If you surf over a pothole, the rubber prongs probe its asphalt depths. Either way, the shock is thereby absorbed, no thuds, smacks, vibrations, or clunks will make their way into the plank or the Converse hightops with which you tread it. The ad was right - you cannot be a professional road surfer without smartwheels."

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#147

Post by BTCOG »

the_af wrote: post #139
BTCOG wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is contrary to numerous interviews where Gibson praises aesthetic and for example, says that Blade Runner spot-on nailed what he was going for with Neuromancer. Gibson all throughout Neuromancer equally himself focuses, almost hyper-focuses on surface textures and visual aesthetic to juxtapose antique forms and purpose with high tech modern materials. It would seemingly be at odds for him to not like aesthetic a…

I don't think it's contrary. First, Blade Runner came BEFORE Neuromancer was released, so it cannot have been a derivative, and there weren't any good representations of the aesthetic on screen either; its visuals broke new ground in many senses. Gibson rightly feared that: > "BLADERUNNER came out while I was still writing Neuromancer. I was about a third of the way into the manuscript. When I saw (the first twenty m…

I think that's a great assessment. Other than being great friends with Bruce Sterling I'm not aware of afterward works considered derivative that he's directly praised. Maybe some Stephenson works and Sterling?

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#148

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #30
the__alchemist wrote: post #10

I finished reading Neuromancer a week ago. I'd played Cyberpunk 2077 recently, and Dystopia further back. So many of the concepts from those games appear to come directly from Neuromancer! I stumbled upon articles implying they were indirectly influenced; Neuromancer evidently created a whole genre! Btw, compared to hard scifi like Stephenson (relevant comparison due to Snow Crash), Neuromacer isn't really there; its…

Gibson pioneered the genre - you have to give him that. He is very much off on a lot of details though. For example, in his other books, his descriptions of mercenaries are comical at best for anyone who has a passing familiarity with the topic. Nonetheless, I place him up there with Stephenson. All this DESPITE the fact that Stephenson stands in a league of his own - he pioneered "post cyberpunk" with Diamond Age an…

"Bruce Sterling - Islands in the Net": not as gritty-noir as Neuromancer, not as pop-cynic as Snow Crash but a genre classic imho.

T.R.Napper is also worth looking out for. "Neon Leviathan" is not what i would call a masterpiece, but the author seems promising.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#149

Post by ineedasername »

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

I think the aesthetic, whether Gibson likes it or not, is interesting & compelling enough to stand on its own, outside of any specific or inherent social commentary. Though I agree that as an environment for stories its no longer well suited to commentary on society today. Some of what he envisioned has become mundane parts of everyday life, in some form or another. Others never much materialized. For the former, well, mundane doesn't cut it if you're after edge-walking commentary on society's direction at the intersection of technology and human behavior.

Charles Stross's early works came in at tail end of cyberpunk, lets call it the silver age, and to me they read like they're trying to find a way forward for the genre, and he ultimately decided that wasn't the way to go. So he branched out from there, including to near-future sci-fi. This was ultimately a dead end because he kept finding that, no matter how strange the plot, by the time a manuscript was really starting to take its final form he was already proven right by current events. And publishing schedules being what they are, his book wouldn't hit shelves until a year or more later at which point they'd read like derivative commentary on year++ old events. Essentially, his predictions were pretty good, but his expected timeline was far too generous: the future was coming too fast. All of his work is worth reading though, and I think his Laundry Files & Merchant series would appeal to different, somewhat overlapping sets of HN readers. For one of the most interesting mind fck time travel stories, check out his short work Palimpsest.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#150

Post by pmoriarty »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #75
XorNot wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibson has been pretty adamant that interpreting the Sprawl setting as a dystopia is not quite understanding it: the Sprawl is a quality of life upgrade for a lot of Earth's citizens today.

Neal Stephenson gives a spicier take on this in Snowcrash: "... the Invisible Hand has taken away all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity."

Neal Stephenson gives a spicier take on this in Snowcrash: "... the Invisible Hand has taken away all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity."

I don't get it. What does being Pakistani have to do with anything?

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