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The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

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Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#61

Post by Cthulhu_ »

KaiserPro wrote: post #45

I read Neuromancer a few years back, I liked it. I do don't normally read scifi as it tends to annoy me. However this didnt. One thing that really stuck out for me was that _everyone_ had memory foam mattresses. The slums, the really slick holiday homes, everyone.

> One thing that really stuck out for me was that _everyone_ had memory foam mattresses. The slums, the really slick holiday homes, everyone.

Interesting; I guess it could be explained in-universe by economies of scale, that is, (memory) foam mattresses being faster and cheaper to produce than other types of mattresses. I'm thinking of spring mattresses, which actually have parts and different materials, whereas foam can be just a single block I think? And when you think about logistics, memory foam can be compacted and vacuum sealed for transport.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#62

Post by drBonkers »

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

Capitalism's greatest superpower is absorbing all critique and selling it back to consumers as a luxury good.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#63

Post by yike321123 »

ipnon wrote: post #55
after_care wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come to disregard Gibson’s disdain for deviated works. Disregarding Gibson’s authority and deviating on his art in a way that pleases the creator is very punk in spirit.

In his defense, there are few things more punk than disdain for derivatives and veneration for originality and progenitors. Punks are a conservative bunch. They're still playing the same records from 50 years ago like they came out today.

Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather than the actual message. While it may be fun to rather generalize and insult others to put on the face of superiority. Maybe think bigger.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#64

Post by hajile »

the__alchemist wrote: post #10

I finished reading Neuromancer a week ago. I'd played Cyberpunk 2077 recently, and Dystopia further back. So many of the concepts from those games appear to come directly from Neuromancer! I stumbled upon articles implying they were indirectly influenced; Neuromancer evidently created a whole genre! Btw, compared to hard scifi like Stephenson (relevant comparison due to Snow Crash), Neuromacer isn't really there; its…

You should read Snow Crash. While Neuromancer created the style, Snow Crash added in a lot of missing elements and had the benefit of being written 8 years later and by someone with some with a lot more knowledge of computing.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#65

Post by XorNot »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #54
jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

I think to focus on Neuromancer's use of Japanese culture is to stay at the surface level. The background of Neuromancer is one of income inequality, human destruction, and almost-absent government and community (partly caused by a ubiquitous global information network that seems to have broken everything.) We don't have brain-computer interfaces today and Chiba City isn't the center of the tech world (maybe that's S…

Gibson has been pretty adamant that interpreting the Sprawl setting as a dystopia is not quite understanding it: the Sprawl is a quality of life upgrade for a lot of Earth's citizens today.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#66

Post by Cthulhu_ »

omarhaneef wrote: post #41
jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

Also true of Lord of the Rings, or watching Star Wars etc if you didn't read/watch it early on (either when it first came out to the world, or early on in your life when you were new to the genre). I won't speculate on why this is the case, but some people claim its because the innovations are copied so quickly the original becomes just another copy of itself.

Re: Lord of the Rings, while the language itself is a bit outdated and it can be quite tedious in a lot of places, it still set a benchmark that - at least as far as I'm aware - hasn't been met yet in other books in the wider fantasy genre. I've read a few, some of the serialized form, but they often feel awkward and derivative; often full of male power fantasies, coming-of-age hero's journey tropes, worldbuilding that somehow always feels derivative of LotR (which in itself was derivative of others as well I'm sure, but said others have been forgotten or replaced by that of LotR), and they often seem like the goal of the author is volume, write as many books as they can (thinking of Robert Jordan and the like) just to get all their worldbuilding in there.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#67

Post by the_af »

glenstein wrote: post #52
throw1234651234 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyberpunk 2077 is very much a disappointment in every sense other than the scope of the project. Every single aspect of it is a cheap, shallow rip-off. It adds nothing of value to anything, though enjoyable in the way Mortal Combat is. Still, Mortal Combat was far more ground-breaking and original - that about sums up how much of a "derivative work" Cyberpunk 2077 is.

Right, and I wouldn't want to generalize too much from that example, as I think parent commenter does. One dimension of Cyberpunk as envisioned by William Gibson genuinely was explicitly aesthetic, in the way in which it was meant to be understood and experienced. So derivatives focusing on that aren't necessarily missing the point. However, it's still certainly possible to reproduce those aesthetics in bad ways, or…

> "as I think parent commenter does"

Point of correction: I'm trying to convey what Gibson said. If there's a generalization, it's not mine but his. The guy invented cyberpunk, so I think he has a right to holding very strong opinions about it.

I do tend to agree with Gibson, but I also like the aesthetic and I'm content reading and looking at cyberpunk, as long as it's not too lazy.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#68

Post by mmaunder »

I’m constantly amazed at how Metaverse aficionados quote Snow Crash and and other 1990s works as cornerstones of cyberspace, when Gibson invented the term and Neuromancer was written in 1984. Gibson is the original. The passage where Case connects to the matrix (also a Gibson term) again for the first time once his nervous system is repaired is heartbreakingly beautiful. I relate to it as a young phone phreak growing up in South Africa in the 80s and 90s when I would bluebox the home country direct phone trunks to connect to BBSs in the USA. When I could not get through, usually because they were filtering my seize tones, I felt the same deprivation. And when I finally connected I felt the same elation Case feels in this scene…

“Please, he prayed, now—

A gray disk, the color of Chiba sky.

Now—

Disk beginning to rotate, faster, becoming a sphere of paler gray. Expanding—

And flowed, flowered for him, fluid neon origami trick, the unfolding of his distanceless home, his country, transparent 3D chessboard extending to infinity. Inner eye opening to the stepped scarlet pyramid of the Eastern Seaboard Fission Authority burning beyond the green cubes of Mitsubishi Bank of America, and high and very far away he saw the spiral arms of military systems, forever beyond his reach.

And somewhere he was laughing, in a white-painted loft, distant fingers caressing the deck, tears of release streaking his face.”

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#69

Post by the_af »

yike321123 wrote: post #63
ipnon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In his defense, there are few things more punk than disdain for derivatives and veneration for originality and progenitors. Punks are a conservative bunch. They're still playing the same records from 50 years ago like they came out today.

Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather…

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it"

Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently used to convey a message; it's not, in general. It's used to convey a trope that's lost most of its barb.

All in my opinion, of course. And Gibson's.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#70

Post by yike321123 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #56
the_af wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Gibson minds the aesthetic in particular; what he is saying, if I understand him correctly, is that nobody cares about cyberpunk except for the aesthetic. There's nothing beyond it. If there is something, it's the same old tropes about big bad evil 80s-style corporations, usually with a vague Japanese or Asian theme. Everything that was novel about cyberpunk has now been absorbed into the mainstream and…

I'm not entirely convinced of that attitude; plenty of science fiction in a cyberpunk setting have strong underlying messages, of e.g. personal identity, capitalism, privacy, overpopulation, sex work, drugs, classism, AI, environment / global warming, etc; some of the big names there would be (imo, I'm no expert and I can't think of much) Ghost in the Shell, Altered Carbon, The Matrix, some episodes of Love Death & R…

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