Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out • Hacker News Board

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#341

Post by Slartie » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 10:36 AM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #212

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

Pair programming for integrations or maintenance might be ok, but for new projects that is like having multiple people write a novel. Not only will it be pulled in many directions, it may eliminate some great innovations. Usually one person in the pair also has more influence politically in the company so they get their way. There is a reason why nearly all good programming languages, standards, platforms and even ga…

This is so true, and it's why I passionately hate pair programming. Also: Scrum, which is another one of these attempts at turning software engineering into assembly line work. Partially successful in case of maintenance-heavy projects, but a disaster every time I witnessed it being applied to early-stage foundation building.

When prototyping some new idea that might result in a new product/platform/module/whatever, I tend to iterate faster than I could explain my iterations to any other person, even well-versed developers, let alone average-skilled ones. It is normal to refactor the entire codebase multiple times a day in such situations. The internal reasoning processes that guide these iterations, the probability assessments followed by quick trials followed by another iteration that ultimately lead to a solution are so manifold and dealing with so many particulate details (that are of utmost importance however at such an early stage of a new system) that it is impossible and impractical to discuss all of them with someone. You just have to follow your intuition. Having two intuitions in play at this stage is counterproductive, the friction losses are just way too big.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#342

Post by mattmanser » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 10:41 AM UTC

weq wrote: post #287

a9h74j wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question then: For what characteristics of problem is pair programming more useful, when such problems arise? Is there a pattern to plan for?

Pair programming for me works best on complex issues I, or others, have already failed at. Usually its a short term endevour (minutes), ive only done (hours) of pairing in extreme circumstances either during PoCs or prod issues. My opnion is that people need time and practice to aborb. Everyone has there own way. If you are pairing everyday for no other reason then company policy, it sounds like the worse place in th…

None of what you're describing is pair programming, that's just giving someone a hand and/or mentoring.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

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Post by vidarh » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 10:50 AM UTC

decebalus1 wrote: post #166

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

> a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day Sounds like a nightmare. I interviewed once for a company where the team did exactly that, and it was the moment in the interviews I realized I don't want to work there. ad-hoc peer programming is perfectly fine. Debugging something tricky or helping someone ramp up is great. But peer programming as-a-process is literally peer-micromanaging and outright…

I would break off an interview in the middle if it became clear they forced pairing.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

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Post by sarchertech » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:08 AM UTC

racingmars wrote: post #256

rhizome wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most, as far as I'm aware, since it's not required to do the work in almost all cases.

I can only speak for the U.S., but "required to actually do the work" has nothing to do with whether or not I'm legally allowed to set a requirement for a job. There are protected classes/categories that can't be part of the employment decision, but outside of those, the employer is free to set whatever criteria they want for the position. If I run a plumbing company, I could say "all of our plumbers must have a comp…

If the requirement has a disparate impact on one of those protected classes, you can run into problems in the US.

So in the case of plumbers, if a plaintiff can show that you are hiring fewer women because women are less likely to have CS degree—then you would need to show a “demonstrable relationship to the requirements of the job” for a CS degree.

However, this isn’t an issue for software developer positions. A CS degree doesn’t have to be absolutely necessary to be able to perform the job, it just needs a demonstrable relationship to the job requirement. There is also already precedent that a degree in a related field does meet that requirement.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

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Post by bregma » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:13 AM UTC

geraldwhen wrote: post #329

Stratoscope wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I recommend everyone read through that page. Some may love it. Obviously the bosses at SOCi do. For me it is a dystopian nightmare. To summarize: there are three roles, Typist, Navigator, and Support. The Typist is not allowed to think . They are explicitly described as a "smart input device". For the most part, only the Navigator is allowed to think. They tell the Typist exactly what to type, and the Typist mus…

Provigil solves the sleep issue. But I’m a bit younger and I also cannot read dark themes. It’s especially infuriating that half the default font colors appear to be dark shades as well, so it’s dark on dark.

> Provigil solves the sleep issue.

Drug your employees so they appear to be working the desired hours. I can see ethical problems with that idea. The employer should at least be dispensing the drugs for free as a "benefit".

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

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Post by smaudet » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

brailsafe wrote: post #126

ratww wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I have ADHD, but I burned out pretty quickly after a few months of 8h/day pair programming. I started taking medication and took some extended vacation. Thankfully the CEO of the company wasn't much into it, so he forced our pointy-haired boss of a manager to make it optional. The whole team unanimously decided to never do it again.

This almost made me tear up. I've genuinely never thought before this thread that there were companies that did this, and that it's just not a big deal to people with decision making power. I don't do anything for 8 hrs a day, but if I had no choice but to be doing 8 hrs per day of pair programming, I'd really be having some dark thoughts. Not exaggerating, this scares the shit out of me. Thanks for sharing. I actual…

Makes me almost wonder what management is actually good for, besides a high level filtering system...

I like continous pair programming, but not because I actually continuously pair - if someone wants to watch me work, or is too green to go it alone quite yet, its fine. But usually we only pair when it makes sense to, i.e. we are at the beginning of something and figuring out what to split up.

If management tried to force real continuous pairing down everyone's throat all the time....yeah no. That management should be fired, they don't understand how people work.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#347

Post by progx » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:17 AM UTC

Most of the time i feel i watch and learn new things, try to work with them, fail on some point, cause the new shiny things are not so shiny and easy as it seems. "The devil is in the details".

Read article about how great these tools and libs are, how "easy", how they save so much time. Thinking about what i am doing wrong. Illusion. Self-deception.

Try 1000 other libs and tools and frameworks and and and, repeat in an endless loop.

My real productiv code is absolutly tiny compared to the huge amount of work i have and how much a permanently learn and educate myself.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#348

Post by ratww » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:22 AM UTC

brailsafe wrote: post #126

ratww wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I have ADHD, but I burned out pretty quickly after a few months of 8h/day pair programming. I started taking medication and took some extended vacation. Thankfully the CEO of the company wasn't much into it, so he forced our pointy-haired boss of a manager to make it optional. The whole team unanimously decided to never do it again.

This almost made me tear up. I've genuinely never thought before this thread that there were companies that did this, and that it's just not a big deal to people with decision making power. I don't do anything for 8 hrs a day, but if I had no choice but to be doing 8 hrs per day of pair programming, I'd really be having some dark thoughts. Not exaggerating, this scares the shit out of me. Thanks for sharing. I actual…

Yeah, in this case was a single manager abusing his power, who doubled down whenever we aired our grievances, to the point of forbidding talking about it. The CEO however was more sympathetic to our pleas.

The 8h shift looking at a shared screen was absolute terror. No privacy, a lot of machismo with people claiming "I don't need to look at the documentation", terrible productivity when pairing with certain employees that didn't really took the work seriously.

Mandatory pairing simply doesn't work, period. It's like they say about therapy, wanting to do it is a pre-requisite for it working...

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#349

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:28 AM UTC

toomanydoubts wrote: post #100

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday I came across a job position on a company that does 100% mob(!) programming everyday¹. This means every programmer works 6 hours per day on a zoom call with 2 other programmers, rotating roles between typist, navigator and support every ten minutes. I couldn't help but feel my soul being slowly crushed as I read further on their description of the daily activities. Needless to say,…

Very bluntly put: full-time pair and/or mob programming is for and by neurotypical extroverts. People for who their job is a social activity, for who deep work and deep focus on their own are mostly foreign concepts.

I mean to each their own, but companies - and fellow developers - need to stop forcing others into their way of working. Having One True Way of doing things is always bad. But yes, this may mean there will be a divide in your company / teams, where one part prefers solo work while others prefer group work. Deal with it. Compromise. Let the extroverts work on their own for a while, and the introverts do some pair programming, but don't go all in on one or the other.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#350

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #239

mylons wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tangential question: I'm 37 and think I have ADHD. My partner thinks I do, and when I read posts like this I deeply identify with them. What should I do? Get a diagnosis? My ignorance thinks the only course after that is drugs which doesn't sound that appealing..

I’d suggest trying the meds before you form an option on them. I take my ADHD meds every day just the same as somebody else takes heart medicine or wears glasses. It just is what it is. And note: it does sometimes make you feel like cheating or something… you will have to arrive at your own conclusions. Suggest a good therapist to help deal with it.

This is the one; one diagnosis for ADHD is to take the medication and see how you feel. I've heard a colleague, also in his 30's, describe it as his head finally going quiet. I've tried my girlfriend's medication (also a mid-30's diagnosis) and it didn't have that effect, I just noticed I was a lot more deliberate in focusing on and switching between tasks.