Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out • Hacker News Board

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#91

Post by bufordtwain » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

Maybe the sweet spot is to have someone pair with an expert when they are getting started and when they are struggling to understand things. Personally when I pair program I use a large fraction of my brain to interface with the other person. This leaves me much less brain power to work on the actual problem at hand. And it's far more exhausting to me than working alone.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#92

Post by codr7 » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #49

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

Pairing is actually great in limited scenarios where one person is an expert and the other needs to ramp up quickly from their knowledge. But at steady-state, it becomes a drain on efficiency. In my experience, forced pairing is something that a small percentage of people love but it burns most others out. Every company I've seen try to force full-time or even most-time pairing on people has quickly lost a lot of the…

Even then, people are different. Pairing for me is good now and then, but I need time on my own in between to figure things out my way. It's like hybrid work, nice as an option. I once had a boss who tried to force me to pair program with him at his convenience to check up on me, had.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#93

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:00 PM UTC

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

The issue with pair programming has always been that some people hate it with the heat of a thousand suns. I’m one of them. Its very effective I don’t dispute that, but it makes me absolutely miserable and I’ll end up quitting to avoid doing it.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#94

Post by babyshake » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:02 PM UTC

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

One side effect of pair programming frequently is it probably helps make you perform much better during job interviews with coding and system design questions.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#95

Post by NaturalPhallacy » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:03 PM UTC

caseyohara wrote: post #65

depr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide this evidence?

https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide/scientific-research...

There's no way that isn't biased as that company's product is pair programming software.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#96

Post by twblalock » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:05 PM UTC

FractalHQ wrote: post #14

Mizza wrote: post #7

I get the impression that there are many professional developers who have never actually seen good documentation at any point in their lives. So many organizations think that having all of the functions listed in on a Javadoc page is somehow the same thing as documentation. And they wonder why it takes a new developer months to become productive..

And then you have the common argument that comments are bad practice. If I can read 2 lines of comments for every 20 lines of code while navigating a large codebase until I find the code I really need to dive into, the productivity gains from that are nothing to scoff at.

The downside is those two lines of comments might be outdated and no longer match the code they purport to document, which can mislead you into believing something incorrect about how the code functions. I've seen that happen a lot.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#97

Post by drc500free » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:06 PM UTC

zarmin wrote: post #72

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

As someone with ADHD and memory issues, your comment is what I hope my future looks like. Would you mind expanding on how you're able to work through ADHD symptoms, motivation issues and such?

In terms of overall mindset, I've found it helpful to think about my month as a portfolio of days. Some will be hyper productive. Some will be almost nothing.

This has helped in two major ways. I've let go of the idea that the hyper productive days are my natural state, and that the 90% of the days that aren't there are some kind of failure. I've also built my career to avoid having daily accountability and prefer weekly/monthly.

That mindset shift, separate from the daily "how do I get stuff done" tactics, has really helped prevent the kinds of negative spirals that adhd can put me through.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#98

Post by legutier » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

i have ADHD too, and have the same problems. In fact i'm assigned into one-person team in my company because i work effective in that way. My feedback is always 10/10 by my managers, but i think i couldn't work that good with such things as pair programming.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#99

Post by aendruk » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

> Because I have three logical registers on a good day.

That’s a fun way to put it. When encountering the usual brain–computer metaphors, I’ve always felt like I relate more to the Turing machine scanning over its strip of tape.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#100

Post by toomanydoubts » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday I came across a job position on a company that does 100% mob(!) programming everyday¹. This means every programmer works 6 hours per day on a zoom call with 2 other programmers, rotating roles between typist, navigator and support every ten minutes.

I couldn't help but feel my soul being slowly crushed as I read further on their description of the daily activities. Needless to say, the filter indeed worked out. As someone with ADHD, I couldn't last a single day on a job like that.

[1]: https://engineering.meetsoci.com/mob-programming