why do we even tolerate malware companies
Why do we tolerate personal data brokerage companies?
Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
61–70 of 106 posts
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#62I didn't know about this company before, but a cursory search suggests they were only based in Germany, not used by the German government. Title is misleading, especially as it is not the original title of the article, and Germany has in fact prosecuted them. That said, good riddance. We desperately need accountability for malware coming from state actors.
You might have missed this statement in the article:
> German authorities were of course also customers of the company
Though I don't think that's what the title was implying, I think it means German "nationality" rather than German "state-owned".
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because this company was the developer of the "Staatstrojaner" malware government agencies used to hack into computer systems to investigate crimes. I think the original use case was just terrorism but I'm pretty sure it's been used against other crimes as well. As to why the German public tolerate it: because there wasn't sufficient pushback and the government doesn't care about a few protests as most people will ev…
Seems to me like the government should internally own their malware rather than tolerate a company that presumably sells to other governments or private entities. Mine was a rhetorical question of course.
Sometimes (frequently) you want an arms-length/plausibly-deniable relationship so that government can do edgy/illegal stuff but duck the blowback if it all goes pear-shaped or gets exposed to the sanitising light of day. See also extraordinary rendition.
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#64They will continue under a new name and description. The success to this day is not remarkable. That software has not stopped criminals like Olaf Scholz and his buddies, nor has it protect a mayor of a city that was killed in his own house. So, its useless and unethical to think to automate prosecution. Too many false-positives and a bad success rate is not and can not be the goal to break basic rights. The real crim…
>criminals like Olaf Scholz and his buddies
Seriously?
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#65They will continue under a new name and description. The success to this day is not remarkable. That software has not stopped criminals like Olaf Scholz and his buddies, nor has it protect a mayor of a city that was killed in his own house. So, its useless and unethical to think to automate prosecution. Too many false-positives and a bad success rate is not and can not be the goal to break basic rights. The real crim…
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Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#66I will be interested to see how this interacts with the Ampel Koalition's desire to add more restrictions on state-sponsored hacking (search term, "Staatstrojaner" [1]). The current government coalition contract includes "increasing controls" and "higher thresholds" for their use (my translation), which would signal a shift in German federal policy _at least slightly_ away from state-sponsored hacking, which was very favored by the previous government.
It's probably also worth mentioning that these Staatstrojaner haven't really demonstrated effectiveness. It's an extremely common refrain on the Netzpolitik scene here that we would all be much, much better served if the government were compelled to responsibly disclose the bugs used in these tools to the companies producing the software, instead of trying to keep them quiet in order to weaponize them. But I suspect this argument is basically preaching to the choir at HN. For German speakers, I would highly recommend following both Netzpolitik and Lage der Nation; the former is self-explanatory but the latter also frequently talks about digital policy in Germany.
Edit: a clarifying point here, as far as I understand, FinFisher is *not* a state-owned company (that would be big news!), but rather a normal GmbH (like an LLC) that develops and sells Staatstrojaner. As such I think the line in the title ("German State Malware Company") strikes me as inaccurate in both English and a hypothetical German->English translation.
[1] https://netzpolitik.org/2021/koalitionsvertrag-das-plant-die...
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Side note, I know metacommentary isn't typically considered entirely kosher on HN, but some threads I'm seeing pretty high up in the discussion here are really not meeting the quality standards I would expect from HN. Calling the current German chancellor Scholz a "criminal" with "buddies", and a follow-up thread that can be summed up as "I think the EU is so corrupt that it only looks after its own politicians" -- all of this with absolutely no evidence -- is so frustratingly hyperbolic and reductionist that it has me (in all seriousness) wondering what level of exposure HN has to state-level disinformation actors.
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> companies escaped seizure through insolvency This is a strange arrangement that I guess most countries follow. Companies are legal entities, that can be sued and so on. But a company cannot go to jail (board members or stock owners don't typically go to jail either). These legal entities can also seize to exist (like in this example), and then there is nobody left to be held accountable... It seems like most countr…
Big difference between board members and stockholders. Board members are liable to some extent stockholders almost never are, unless the business was specifically founded to facilitate crime. That's where the term Ultimate Beneficiary comes into play.
> Big difference between board members and stockholders.
Completely agree, but in small/medium size companies (no public stock etc), these are often the same people. In many cases it's completely obvious who (which humans) that have done something wrong, but since we still accept that the legal entity under which they operated no longer exists; you're stuck.
A problem where I live (Norway) has been that people register companies to build apartment buildings, then immediately dissolve the company once the apartments are sold. The people who buy those flats better pray that there is nothing wrong with them, as there is basically nowhere to turn if there is.
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
> companies escaped seizure through insolvency This is a strange arrangement that I guess most countries follow. Companies are legal entities, that can be sued and so on. But a company cannot go to jail (board members or stock owners don't typically go to jail either). These legal entities can also seize to exist (like in this example), and then there is nobody left to be held accountable... It seems like most countr…
Most countries also stop criminal & civil proceedings if the human in question ceases to exist
> ceases to exist
Exactly, you cannot just change name and buy a mustache like these companies basically can.
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#69why do we even tolerate malware companies
Malware isn't bad, like guns, it depends on the one using it. There are legit uses, e.g. governments or simulations of real attacks.
> There are legit uses, e.g. governments
I'm astonished that there are so many people here that are willing to defend government use of malware.
Malware is software deliberately designed to cause devices to malfunction. Since when is it legitimate for any government to deliberately break the property of a private citizen who hasn't been convicted of any offence, without at least a court order?
Re: Stage win: FinFisher is bankrupt
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
>they gather everyday in the parlaments with their shady double income, their wrongdoings and promises broken every day You can add Ursula v.d.L. to that list. I lost faith in all EU governments to do anything for the people.
What did von der Leyen do?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen#%22Consul...
Just the tip of the iceberg
And what made her unpopular initially: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen#Blocking_...
> [...] creating the necessary infrastructure for extensive censorship of websites deemed illegal by the BKA.