When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged • Hacker News Board

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#161

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #83

unityByFreedom wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then…

> taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class Those are all just "things that kids do", or they used to be some years ago, pretty sad that "skipping classes" has transformed into a "reckless" thing that risks getting you, as a kid, quasi-institutionalised.

It's not to be normalised though. I sorta-knew a kid like that (he ended up living at his grandma across from our street after his family fell apart due to marital reasons); he was also mid teens or so and went joyriding in her car. Which nobody would probably find out or care about, but he ended up parking it against a tree if you catch my drift. He was unharmed thankfully, but it could have ended badly.

It might be "things that kids do", but it shouldn't be normalized or tolerated. Especially children, there's a lot of things that, until they can understand themselves, they need to be Told. How many things did you (dear reader) do growing up that, in hindsight, you think "wow that was stupid / reckless / I could've died"?

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#162

Post by Clubber » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:05 PM UTC

newaccount74 wrote: post #128

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #68

Stories about these institutions get conflated into a mess that scarcely resembles the reality. In a way, this is inevitable with a wide variety of schools and treatment centers, and a yet wider variety of perspectives. This particular story tells us little about these schools – it describes the perspective of a student, a client. This is valuable and I'm grateful to read it. However, I caution other readers against…

> some students thought it was abusive to require skiing and mountain biking two days per week (I disagree) The question of whether this is abusive or not depends on the consequences for refusing to go. Do kids lose TV privileges for a day if they refuse to go? Then I'd say it's not abusive. Are kids locked in a room if they refuse to go? Definitely abusive.

>Are kids locked in a room if they refuse to go? Definitely abusive.

I don't disagree, but also consider the entire picture. Some of these people end up being the ones that get raging drunk, and into head on collision with a family of 4 killing them all. How the heck do you try to prevent something like that when all the warning signs are there?

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#163

Post by flycaliguy » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #129

unityByFreedom wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some children are "bad" and need to be taught not to hurt others. The title of this post is relevant. OP "obliged" because he was told he was bad. The point is to not do that. > Children certainly need boundaries and rules Rules are paramount in "Positive Disipline". From the section "Creating Rules" [1]: > In her book entitled Positive Discipline, Jane Nelsen emphasizes the importance of not only creating clear ru…

I appreciate your response and I apologize for the brevity of this one, but I worry that pretty much everything in the second half of your comments is based on a highly-idealized perspective of the situation. What if you try and be fair with a kid and they just never understand fairness ? What do you do if you need the kid to follow rules so they don’t get in trouble? What are the “natural consequences” for a kid who…

For my style of positive parenting a lot of it comes down to clearly illustrating for my kids that they enjoy many privileges around the house. These privileges are conditional on their behaviour in the house. That is basically the foundation and then it’s positive parenting on top of that with privileges lost when necessary. All lost privileges or up for debate and negotiation, there is no confusion or all mighty authority.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#164

Post by unityByFreedom » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #157

unityByFreedom wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your solution sounds like we should try nothing, > There are kids who cannot be reasoned with. Are you familiar with an approach that can help? The approach I mention has been around for over 70 years.

Are you a parent? And if so, did you use your approach? It would just be anecdata, but at least some real world experience.

Yes and yes, of course I do! I've learned a ton from this discipline and never need to raise my voice with my kid. When I do raise my voice, it is almost always unnecessary. I apologize in those cases because I want her to know we can recover from mistakes and that it is okay to be upset. Our relationship is stronger for it.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#165

Post by Fertilio » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:16 PM UTC

newaccount74 wrote: post #128

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #68

Stories about these institutions get conflated into a mess that scarcely resembles the reality. In a way, this is inevitable with a wide variety of schools and treatment centers, and a yet wider variety of perspectives. This particular story tells us little about these schools – it describes the perspective of a student, a client. This is valuable and I'm grateful to read it. However, I caution other readers against…

> some students thought it was abusive to require skiing and mountain biking two days per week (I disagree) The question of whether this is abusive or not depends on the consequences for refusing to go. Do kids lose TV privileges for a day if they refuse to go? Then I'd say it's not abusive. Are kids locked in a room if they refuse to go? Definitely abusive.

No post body was provided.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#166

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #164

hef19898 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a parent? And if so, did you use your approach? It would just be anecdata, but at least some real world experience.

Yes and yes, of course I do! I've learned a ton from this discipline and never need to raise my voice with my kid. When I do raise my voice, it is almost always unnecessary. I apologize in those cases because I want her to know we can recover from mistakes and that it is okay to be upset. Our relationship is stronger for it.

Kudos, then, I try and fail at being the parent I want more often than I care to admit.

What ever makes our children human beings able to show compassion with others, and stay safe as soon as they have to live their lives on their own feet, is good parenting. Everything else is secondary. Same as the most important thing with new born toddlers is "are they healthy?".

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#167

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:29 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #162

newaccount74 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some students thought it was abusive to require skiing and mountain biking two days per week (I disagree) The question of whether this is abusive or not depends on the consequences for refusing to go. Do kids lose TV privileges for a day if they refuse to go? Then I'd say it's not abusive. Are kids locked in a room if they refuse to go? Definitely abusive.

>Are kids locked in a room if they refuse to go? Definitely abusive. I don't disagree, but also consider the entire picture. Some of these people end up being the ones that get raging drunk, and into head on collision with a family of 4 killing them all. How the heck do you try to prevent something like that when all the warning signs are there?

> How the heck do you try to prevent something like that when all the warning signs are there?

Surely not by preemptive incarceration.

GP said:

> Do kids lose TV privileges for a day if they refuse to go? Then I'd say it's not abusive.

I don't agree. Coercing kids into physical sports is abusive. In general, using coercion (including denial of "privileges" that non-inmates consider a right) is both abusive and probably doomed.

This kid was surely troubled; but why? He didn't talk much about how his parents treated him. All we know is that their response to the trouble was to dump him in an institution. My guess is that his behaviour was a rational response to being brought up in a home where he was denied love and affection.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#168

Post by taurath » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:41 PM UTC

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #68

Stories about these institutions get conflated into a mess that scarcely resembles the reality. In a way, this is inevitable with a wide variety of schools and treatment centers, and a yet wider variety of perspectives. This particular story tells us little about these schools – it describes the perspective of a student, a client. This is valuable and I'm grateful to read it. However, I caution other readers against…

This all pretends like there’s somehow no causality to many of these kids being “difficult”. I’ll even give that in some cases there is just some condition that makes a kid incredibly out of control despite actual loving supporting parents, but I would wager you can find environmental causes in most cases.

My experience with friends who have gone to places like this is that the kids by and large were under extreme emotional neglect from a very early age, and visiting a “troubled teen” facility is that it catalyses and forever imprints a childhood completely filled with trauma. It destroys forever the possibility of a relationship with the parents. Kids are often not told where they were going or being rushed away in the middle of the night, with drill sergeants and harsh punishments and rural facilities designed to present escape. It’s psychological torture to “break” a child as one would a farm animal.

Parents are sacrosanct in this country and there is no actual community to give much in terms of help. Peoples suburban homes are their castle and nobody knows how much neglect or abuse is going on behind closed doors until the kid shows up at school with a “behavior disorder”. Simply put: people who are completely incompetent to care for another human being much less an immature one’s emotional or physical or developmental needs get full legal protection. I think this is underappreciated in society since everyone who is a parent experienced many difficulties and they imagine all the ways things could go wrong. They are usually being charitable to the other parents though - the bar at which a child develops a secure emotional attachment is not that high.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#169

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #93

fsckboy wrote: post #91

> When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged There's a chicken egg problem here: when you were labeled a troubled teen, you already were a troubled teen. What happened to you after was bad, but it wasn't all peaches and cream before. Finding the appropriate way to deal with troubled teens (even if it did start with poor parenting) is not easy, and this discussion seems like a one-sided caricature.

Regardless of what people did, or someone perceived as bad behavior, there are things that should be totally, absolutely off limits and unacceptable as either "treatment" or punishment. What the author, and other in this thread, describe falls so squarely into the unacceptable category as things can be. I always wonder how such things can happen at all . Until I read comments like yours, and when combined with the us…

[deleted]

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#170

Post by blackbrokkoli » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #114

unityByFreedom wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then…

>"Today, many psychologists suggest using positive discipline" From Wikipedia: >"It is based on the idea that there are no bad children, just good and bad behaviors." Given the fact that we've known for decades now that behaviour is roughly 50% nature (and 50% nurture), this foundational (implied) premise is unequivocally and demonstrably incorrect. Some children are "bad" and need to be taught not to hurt others. Th…

The nature/nature discussion is definitely still on and riddled with over-confident takes made in the past that now seem silly.

I would very much refrain from using the phrase "given the fact" here, and a video titled like a Buzzfeed article might not be the best evidence either