Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 255 posts

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#111

Post by hef19898 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #106
hef19898 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why I downvoted? Because, to me, the linked approach is the first (well, actually already a couple of miles) step towards tough love programs. It goes against everything good parenting is. Because at its core, much like tough love, the goal is to create "conforming" children that aren't causing any trouble. The goal of parenting, so, should be to offer a safe environment for kids to become who they are and want to to…

"to become who they are and want to to become no matter what that is" That sounds like a circular definition.

I believe there is a true self in all of us. Whatever that is, and it might change. We have no way to tell what that is, so. Discovering this is what personal development is about. This development should be as unhindered as possible. One, rather obvious, example is trans-gender people. That's the "who / what you are" part.

The become what you want part is ranging from career choices to the kind of person, besides identity, you want to become. This should be as unhindered as possible as well.

Personally, whenever someone, something or a society tries to hinder any of this, I have adverse reactions. Of course there are limits to this, personal freedom ends at other peoples noses. It's hard to tell the good solutions, it's easy to tell the bad ones. And tough love camps are definitely bad ones.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#112

Post by barsonme »

kingcharles wrote: post #80

Is anyone else disturbed at the sheer number of people in this thread alone who are coming out about being forcibly sent to one of these camps? And I'm thinking that statistically HN's demographic probably swings more towards nerdy, well-behaved white boys from two-parent families who are middle-class or above. Not necessarily who I would have thought would have been at harm from this scam. So, if the demographic I b…

I come from a regular middle class background. Like, where your mom is a teacher, you drive to vacations instead of flying, and your neighbors are truck drivers and cops and firefighters and car salesmen. Lots of two-parent families, lots of white people.

A bunch of kids got into all sorts of trouble, but I can only remember one kid getting sent away to one of these ”scare your kid straight” camps. He was a grade-A jackass, but the apple didn’t fall far from the tree, unfortunately.

When he left, most people (adults and kids) had the same reaction: confused why a parent would do that to their child, but also not confused that those parents did it, and also not losing much sleep over who it happened to.

And so, at least in my experience, this wasn’t some sort of epidemic. Maybe it is now, I don’t know. Maybe it’s something mostly rich people do.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#113

Post by [deleted] »

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #68

Stories about these institutions get conflated into a mess that scarcely resembles the reality. In a way, this is inevitable with a wide variety of schools and treatment centers, and a yet wider variety of perspectives. This particular story tells us little about these schools – it describes the perspective of a student, a client. This is valuable and I'm grateful to read it. However, I caution other readers against…

[deleted]

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#114

Post by Gareth321 »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #41
Mirioron wrote: post #17

I have a difficult time understanding this. I was a kid that was rebellious, but in a way that didn't get me in trouble. When I read stories like this I get an intense feeling of fighting back, or at the very least, hold everyone that participated in contempt for the rest of my life. I am certain that if my parents had done something like this I would never have forgiven them. Nor would I have forgiven anyone that wo…

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then…

>"Today, many psychologists suggest using positive discipline"

From Wikipedia:

>"It is based on the idea that there are no bad children, just good and bad behaviors."

Given the fact that we've known for decades now that behaviour is roughly 50% nature (and 50% nurture), this foundational (implied) premise is unequivocally and demonstrably incorrect. Some children are "bad" and need to be taught not to hurt others. This parenting style is growing in popularity and I don't think it's a surprise that we now see an epidemic of kids with mental health problems.

I recommend listening to this lecture from Jonathan Haidt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5IGyHNvr7E&t=569s

Children certainly need boundaries and rules. They need corrective measures when children rebel. I think it's clear that a lack of negative punishment is leading to all kinds of negative outcomes for children.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#115

Post by unityByFreedom »

noduerme wrote: post #103
unityByFreedom wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then…

>> maybe your family did effectively use positive discipline, or you were an only child, or you were the "good" one in your family. You omit the many sadly common cases for legitimate rebellion and escape, such as sexual abuse from stepparents or foster parents. Those unfortunately can't be remedied with "positive discipline" and they don't make a child the "bad" one.

Right because neither the OP nor the parent comment gave any hint they had been abused. There's no question that abuse is harmful.

One of the tenets of "positive discipline" is that disagreement and rebellion are expected. By accepting such behavior, a trained therapist may earn a child's trust. And, that can be helpful to a school or therapist to discover if abuse is occurring.

That said, if you know a kid hasn't experienced abuse, you might wonder whether or not they receive any attention for doing good things. They may be acting out more because that's what got them attention. What constitutes "acting out" is very personal for each family and individual.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#116

Post by bobsmooth »

fsckboy wrote: post #91

> When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged There's a chicken egg problem here: when you were labeled a troubled teen, you already were a troubled teen. What happened to you after was bad, but it wasn't all peaches and cream before. Finding the appropriate way to deal with troubled teens (even if it did start with poor parenting) is not easy, and this discussion seems like a one-sided caricature.

>Picked off. Kidnapped. Taken. Call it what you wish, but trying to sleep each night with the notion that a pair of strangers could come to lift you from your bed, whether your actions were deserving of this treatment or not, haunts me, haunts thousands.

How can the response to that sentence be anything but horror?

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#117

Post by hef19898 »

rOOb85 wrote: post #85
vonseel wrote: post #55

I was sent to one of these schools and attended from late 2005 - early 2007. The school was called Excel Academy about an hour north of Houston; it has since been shut down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excel_Academy_(Conroe,_Texas) My reasons for being sent there are similar to the author's. I didn't take my dad's car without permission, but I did drink a lot, skip school, was generally rebellious and refused to be…

I was in elan and yea, a lot of similarities. elan had a pretty extensive class system. Shot down was the lowest, worker was standard entry level, then expeditor, then something else, then guru, and I can’t remember the rest. Anything lower then expeditor weren’t allowed to talk to one another without a higher up “being aware” or couldn’t use the bathroom without an escort(who could deny you if they were busy or just…

Since you mentioned religion. Most places like that I know of in Germany were either church influenced state-run or state-sanctioned church-run. Which added an additional layer of hell... One the church is really reluctant to talk about, and state authorities to investigate.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#118

Post by bobsmooth »

kingcharles wrote: post #80

Is anyone else disturbed at the sheer number of people in this thread alone who are coming out about being forcibly sent to one of these camps? And I'm thinking that statistically HN's demographic probably swings more towards nerdy, well-behaved white boys from two-parent families who are middle-class or above. Not necessarily who I would have thought would have been at harm from this scam. So, if the demographic I b…

Most people don't comment until they're given an opportunity to do so.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#119

Post by unityByFreedom »

Gareth321 wrote: post #114
unityByFreedom wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then…

>"Today, many psychologists suggest using positive discipline" From Wikipedia: >"It is based on the idea that there are no bad children, just good and bad behaviors." Given the fact that we've known for decades now that behaviour is roughly 50% nature (and 50% nurture), this foundational (implied) premise is unequivocally and demonstrably incorrect. Some children are "bad" and need to be taught not to hurt others. Th…

> Some children are "bad" and need to be taught not to hurt others.

The title of this post is relevant. OP "obliged" because he was told he was bad. The point is to not do that.

> Children certainly need boundaries and rules

Rules are paramount in "Positive Disipline". From the section "Creating Rules" [1]:

> In her book entitled Positive Discipline, Jane Nelsen emphasizes the importance of not only creating clear rules, but of making them fair...

Positive discipline is anything but permissive parenting. The point of the statement you quoted is simply that all kids can be guided towards good behavior, because as you said, nurture and nature both contribute.

> I think it's clear that a lack of negative punishment is leading to all kinds of negative outcomes for children.

To each their own, but I agree with Dreikurs that natural consequences are enough to teach kids the lessons they need to learn. Forgot your lunch money? Figure it out. Maybe it's hard to convince your kid to brush their teeth because the consequences are so far in the future, but if you take a moment to explain the importance of healthy teeth, they will hear you. The idea is to build a forthright, trusting relationship with kids so they feel comfortable coming to you with the harder problems later. I'd argue that using harsher measures pushes kids away so that when they do struggle with more advanced concepts later, they feel left adrift. On the other hand, if your parents were "tough" with you and you still have a good relationship then maybe that works for you.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discipline#Creating_r...

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#120

Post by noduerme »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #110
noduerme wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the kids I knew who ended up in these programs were nowhere near as f*cked up as their parents - even before those parents handed their children to abusive thugs.

Right, so the question becomes, how do you break that cycle? These kids may grow up planning to be different from their parents. But when you become a parent, "muscle memory" can kick in. You end up parenting as yours did because that's what you know.

This really is the question. Not to be crass but at least 3 of the kids I knew were grabbed at night and taken to these places broke the cycle by committing suicide. I was tempted to respond to the Englishman in this thread who posted a heartbreaking story by asking whether he/they thought this was still having ramifications forward in British society, but then I thought, well it's an extension of 400 years of beatings and rape in the British Navy so no shit it's still a cycle. A quick look at the Russian Army... or religious communities in West Texas...

Uh, how do you break the cycle. Maybe one out of ten people who are abused have the strength to see the viciousness of it and reclaim some part of themselves instead of repeating the abuse, and write about it for the NYT. The rest go to alcoholism, self-harm, anger, and repeating the same on their kids.

The only thing that's sort of worked to break these kinds of chains of abuse is when NGOs and governments go after them and expose the evil. That has had some effect on the Catholic Church, and a little effect on the worst excesses of the prison system in some states. The 20-30% of people in this country who were lucky enough not to suffer some sort of abuse [edit: Or who consider it wrong] are a minority, but thankfully in control of most of the media and civic institutions (for now: When they're not, it looks like Russia).

So I guess the best way to break this particular chain is at the weakest link, which is these kinds of "schools".

[Edit: Just re-reading your earlier response in another chain, I should clarify that I consider this type of discipline itself to be a form of abuse, often including sexual abuse. But in any case, breaking one chain or another is equally difficult when someone has been subjected to it and is now subjecting their children to it.]

Post reply on HN