When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged • Hacker News Board

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#101

Post by noduerme » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:37 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #67

wolverine876 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain level it's not hard to understand, in that it's predictable: Power corrupts, and you can depend on it. People with power over vulnerable human beings, and with no check on their power, can be generally predicted to abuse it. Just look for those situations and I predict that you will often find it. (That's one reason transparency and openness are so important.) Look at child sex abuse scandals: Who do the…

"Power corrupts" may explain the abusive nature of "tough love" programs, but it does not explain how the teen became troubled in the first place. Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.

Most of the kids I knew who ended up in these programs were nowhere near as f*cked up as their parents - even before those parents handed their children to abusive thugs.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#102

Post by hackernewds » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:40 AM UTC

searchableguy wrote: post #89

girvo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question. Do these programs exist in other countries? A cursory search (I honestly am not sure what I should be looking for) couldn't find any here in Australia. Is this a uniquely American thing? Surely not, I assume. If it's not, do these programs have the same horrible stories coming out of them elsewhere, and if they don't, does that not paint a picture that the approach taken in the US isn't a good one?…

> Do these programs exist in other countries? Yes, they exist in India. The usual purpose is to force kids to study. India has coaching centres which are worse than jails for kids where they are coached to crack JEE (Elite college entrance exam) and other competitive exams. You can find all sort of abuse happening in these. Stack class ranking, subtle gender separation, and some verbal & physical abuse is common in m…

A very common theme is the utter discard of any "growth mindset". And students are increasingly not only ranked within the same class, but thereon the classes themselves are ranked - where the best instructors are assigned to the best classes -> students. The ultimate incentive here for the school is to land 5-10 very smart students that will "top" the national exams bringing pride and most importantly, a lot of applications to the institution.

YMMV as the thread states, but it is undeniably a feature of these schools.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#103

Post by noduerme » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:42 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #41

Mirioron wrote: post #17

I have a difficult time understanding this. I was a kid that was rebellious, but in a way that didn't get me in trouble. When I read stories like this I get an intense feeling of fighting back, or at the very least, hold everyone that participated in contempt for the rest of my life. I am certain that if my parents had done something like this I would never have forgiven them. Nor would I have forgiven anyone that wo…

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then…

>> maybe your family did effectively use positive discipline, or you were an only child, or you were the "good" one in your family.

You omit the many sadly common cases for legitimate rebellion and escape, such as sexual abuse from stepparents or foster parents. Those unfortunately can't be remedied with "positive discipline" and they don't make a child the "bad" one.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#104

Post by sriram_malhar » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:43 AM UTC

searchableguy wrote: post #89

girvo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question. Do these programs exist in other countries? A cursory search (I honestly am not sure what I should be looking for) couldn't find any here in Australia. Is this a uniquely American thing? Surely not, I assume. If it's not, do these programs have the same horrible stories coming out of them elsewhere, and if they don't, does that not paint a picture that the approach taken in the US isn't a good one?…

> Do these programs exist in other countries? Yes, they exist in India. The usual purpose is to force kids to study. India has coaching centres which are worse than jails for kids where they are coached to crack JEE (Elite college entrance exam) and other competitive exams. You can find all sort of abuse happening in these. Stack class ranking, subtle gender separation, and some verbal & physical abuse is common in m…

These are quite different in spirit to the kind of schools that OP posted. Parents aren't sending their kids to the coaching centres to straighten them out. They all want their kids to do well in studies, and unfortunately, this is all they care about. In some sense, these schools are like boarding schools; some kids shine, some get traumatised for life.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#105

Post by noduerme » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:44 AM UTC

thrashh wrote: post #56

unityByFreedom wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then…

One thing I’ve learned at this point is that almost l no kid or adult is actually irrational. If someone seems irrational, it’s because their shoes are so different from any that you’ve been in. You simply have never experienced anything like their life (because if you did, you’d be like them). And you can’t actually ask someone to explain their own behavior because everyone only lives one life and they rarely know i…

This goes along with my own observation that when someone you just met says "I'm a really fucked up person," you should believe them no matter how attractive they are.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#106

Post by inglor_cz » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:46 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #95

unityByFreedom wrote: post #47

The field of "Positive Discipline" [1] or "Positive Parenting" provides workable solutions. There may not be a quick fix. The idea is to reinforce good behavior while weaning bad ones. There are a ton of podcasts and books on this topic you can find using those keywords. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discipline edit: please explain your downvotes, thanks! As interesting as discussing the problems is, the…

Why I downvoted? Because, to me, the linked approach is the first (well, actually already a couple of miles) step towards tough love programs. It goes against everything good parenting is. Because at its core, much like tough love, the goal is to create "conforming" children that aren't causing any trouble. The goal of parenting, so, should be to offer a safe environment for kids to become who they are and want to to…

"to become who they are and want to to become no matter what that is"

That sounds like a circular definition.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#107

Post by shitshowmcgee » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 8:00 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #62

duxup wrote: post #49

It's hard read these stories and not wonder about the parents. At the same time I'm often drawn to the story of my high school buddy's youngest sister. His family was as normal as you might expect, the kids were perhaps unusually "driven", but in good ways, music, athletics, academics, all three even. But the youngest was driven to rebel in the most distributive ways possible, the usual running away from home, older…

When I was growing up I knew a boy who suddenly, around 12 years old, in an otherwise healthy-seeming family, began behaving badly - violence, drugs, flunking out of school, etc. Many years later, he told me the turning point: He was raped and felt he couldn't tell his parents (I don't know who assaulted him). Maybe a/the question to ask is not how the girl recovered, but why it started.

I know this branch in the thread is purely speculative - but it sounds awfully familiar to me as well.

Dated a woman in college who fits that profile in every including being sent off to firms like TFA - it was rooted in a decade of rape by her older brother. Her mother fell into that “we don’t talk about such things” type of profile and so it was left to fester despite being addressed.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#108

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 8:09 AM UTC

rOOb85 wrote: post #6

dghlsakjg wrote: post #3

If you want to read something truly horrific check out elan.school . It was a troubled teen school in Maine that sounds unbelievable until you read multiple identical stories from students

I was one of the unlucky people who spent time at elan. It was a terrible terrible time. Much like the author of the article I was awoken by 2 big dudes in my bedroom and was given the choice to get dressed and go peacefully or they would drag me out of bed and take me away in my underwear. I said I'm not doing shit until my parents give you permission to take me. They handed me a piece of paper with both my parents…

[deleted]

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#109

Post by wickedsickeune » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 8:09 AM UTC

rOOb85 wrote: post #6

dghlsakjg wrote: post #3

If you want to read something truly horrific check out elan.school . It was a troubled teen school in Maine that sounds unbelievable until you read multiple identical stories from students

I was one of the unlucky people who spent time at elan. It was a terrible terrible time. Much like the author of the article I was awoken by 2 big dudes in my bedroom and was given the choice to get dressed and go peacefully or they would drag me out of bed and take me away in my underwear. I said I'm not doing shit until my parents give you permission to take me. They handed me a piece of paper with both my parents…

So, nobody went to prison for this?

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#110

Post by unityByFreedom » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 8:15 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #101

unityByFreedom wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Power corrupts" may explain the abusive nature of "tough love" programs, but it does not explain how the teen became troubled in the first place. Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.

Most of the kids I knew who ended up in these programs were nowhere near as f*cked up as their parents - even before those parents handed their children to abusive thugs.

Right, so the question becomes, how do you break that cycle? These kids may grow up planning to be different from their parents. But when you become a parent, "muscle memory" can kick in. You end up parenting as yours did because that's what you know.