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Rejection Therapy (2011)

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Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#81

Post by omginternets »

sirmarksalot wrote: post #76
omginternets wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with most things, I think it's a balance. A complete desensitization to rejection also implies an inability to regulate your social behavior, which in turn is a great way to get ostracized. The best hard-salesmen are also some of the most insufferable individuals, precisely because they can't take a hint.

So there's a difference between being able to handle emotions, and not feeling them at all. The point of a lot of these exercises isn't to desensitize you to these feelings, but to teach you how to recognize, process and deal with them. A lot of the maladaptations we have come from avoiding negative feelings, and sacrificing our long-term well-being to prevent ourselves from encountering them. I'm sure there's traini…

Sure. The parent poster was taking about being “impervious to rejection”, which is what I was responding to.

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#82

Post by openknot »

dtrent wrote: post #73
olyjohn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that you should never interact with strangers because you might make them anxious? There's probably tons of things that can make people anxious. I'm not going to lock myself in the house to avoid making others anxious. As a socially anxious person myself, I would love for someone to start the conversation with me.

No. I'm saying you shouldn't deceptively use people for your personal benefit by interrupting whatever they're doing with a pretextual request as a form of therapy for yourself. I hear you--I dealt with social anxiety severely for many years and still do to a lesser extent. But nothing about this justifies cynically exploiting people under false pretenses for selfish ends. If you want to talk to strangers, great! Jus…

I initially had a similar feeling, but upon further reflection, I changed my mind by considering a wider timescale.

In the long run, it's likely worse for society as a whole if people have social anxiety that could be treated. Left untreated, social anxiety can lead to antisocial behaviors and other psychological ailments (e.g. severe depression). If I can respond to a minor request that helps in some way to alleviate this, I don't mind. Part of the issue is related to the degree of the ask. I genuinely wouldn't mind someone asking me for directions, as it's a short-term commitment that is a quick ask (and if it would, I can just decline to help). If anything, most people would feel positively by being able to help another person in a minor way.

I wouldn't even frame it as selfish. Leaving anxiety untreated can cause behavior that can be seen as selfish down the road, while actively seeking to treat it via minor requests can help one be in a better position to help others down the road.

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#83

Post by openknot »

nuclearnice1 wrote: post #62
dtrent wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe but making the decision for someone else of whether, when, and how their anxieties should be challenged is, again, kind of shitty

I agree with you. He doesn’t even want these things. May I try on your sunglasses? Can I have a taste of your ice cream? I guess they set the bar low to encourage the experimenters. “Don’t worry you can ask for anything — ask for a dollar! Borrow their newspaper!” I would be more open to it if they had done some thinking. What’s something you genuinely need? Go ask for it. But I guess that’s not as simple. This is ju…

I had a different impression about the magnitude of the requests from your comment than from the article. I pictured the "ice cream" request as asking a person with an ice cream code to let you have a taste, but there's a nuance: the article doesn't actually refer to ice cream, and it looks like it would involve asking a food sample from a store.

From the article: "Examples would be asking for their newspaper, or asking for a few dollars, or a phone number, or to try on their shoes. Or going into a store and asking for some free food. [...] I asked for a number of newspapers. I asked to take the plastic flowers from a storefront. I asked to borrow board games from the board game store. I asked to climb a ladder that a construction worker was setting up – and he let me!"

For what it's worth, the food sample and plastic flowers requests are made from businesses, were the requests aren't too unreasonable (samples are normal to ask where I live, and the flower request can be paid back with repeat business). However, I admit that the sunglasses request was strange (along with the suggestion to try someone's shoes).

I like the spirit behind asking if you can do others favors, but I predict it might weaken the exercise. The behavior is targeting a reluctance to ask for help and favors from others when it counts (it's important for long-term wellbeing to have a balance between taking and giving, versus just giving). It's easier to get rejected when asking to help another person, versus when facing rejection when doing something for yourself (e.g. applying to a job or opportunity).

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#84

Post by openknot »

munificent wrote: post #68
beaconstudios wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good compromise would be something like asking people what the time is, or if they know any good restaurants in the area or something that isn't really asking them for something weird.

But that's not rejection therapy. That's just talking to strangers, which is totally reasonable. The point of rejection therapy is to make a request in a pushy enough way for something that the other person doesn't want to do that they end up assertively saying no. It's not "friendly offer therapy" or "polite decline therapy".

The best simulation activities would be to work in cold calls for a fundraising effort for a non-profit, or work as a journalist. This involves calling lots of strangers or semi-strangers to ask them for money in the former, and emailing lots of people to request interviews (who may be hostile) for the latter.

Both activities have a useful end, and would let someone assertively say no.

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#85

Post by mytdi »

EsperHugh wrote: post #7
munificent wrote: post #4

Using strangers as unwitting tools in your own psychological therapy without their consent seems super sketchy to me.

My psychologist suggested I partake in 1 act of kindness every day, doesn't matter if in favor of a loved one or a stranger. This was to help me deal with some mental problems I had. Following this advice in multiple occasions I actively helped people on the streets, be it by helping them put the groceries in their cars or by taking something that fell off their pockets. I would say this helped me immensely, would yo…

Not sketchy at all, in my opinion. Please keep doing it. We need more acts of kindness in this world.

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#86

Post by openknot »

munificent wrote: post #69
sacrosancty wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps those people who suffer rejecting-unpleasantness should do their own therapy where they go around rejecting people's requests!

You know, if a whole bunch of rejection therapy and rejector therapy folks want to get in a room and work through their stuff, I am all about it because then they've all agreed to participate.

I'm sympathetic to this view, but from my experience living in a dense city, I'm effectively consenting to be randomly approached whenever I step outdoors to go in public.

I may not like it, but people regularly approach to ask for money, to sign up for a recurring donation, to sign a petition, to give a flyer, to sell a CD of music (yes, even in modern times), or to give a product sample. I may also get photographed by a street photographer. A small request that can help someone with their problems looks relatively mild compared to most of these other actions.

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#87

Post by openknot »

munificent wrote: post #70
InitialLastName wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Third Place [0] theory would suggest that places where you can meet and interact with (semi-) strangers are critical to building communities. I'd argue that a part of that is the internal self-development function that is served by talking to strangers (effectively 'recruiting strangers as unpaid therapists`). Done well, it is mutual (you are each building social trust by interacting with one another). [0] https://en…

Talking to strangers is great. Third places are great. Contriving a way to talk to a stranger such that your goal is to force them so far outside of their comfort zone that they assertively reject you is not great. These are not at all the same thing. I'm not saying don't talk to strangers. I'm saying don't use unwitting strangers in your contrived boundary pushing scenarios for your own psychological growth at the e…

There is nuance in my view, as I believe that the action matters more than the intent.

Putting spiders on people is immoral because it causes psychological distress and potential harm due to spider bites. However, other behaviors are far more reasonable (e.g. asking for their newspaper, for a few dollars, or for a food sample from, say, an ice cream store). In isolation, these other behaviors sound perfectly reasonable in other contexts.

However, I agree with you for some of the other examples in the article (e.g. asking to try on someone's shoes or someone's sunglasses) wouldn't be reasonable or useful in other contexts.

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#88

Post by mattxxx »

dtrent wrote: post #73
olyjohn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that you should never interact with strangers because you might make them anxious? There's probably tons of things that can make people anxious. I'm not going to lock myself in the house to avoid making others anxious. As a socially anxious person myself, I would love for someone to start the conversation with me.

No. I'm saying you shouldn't deceptively use people for your personal benefit by interrupting whatever they're doing with a pretextual request as a form of therapy for yourself. I hear you--I dealt with social anxiety severely for many years and still do to a lesser extent. But nothing about this justifies cynically exploiting people under false pretenses for selfish ends. If you want to talk to strangers, great! Jus…

I'm with you on this.

Challenging your own anxiety - and breaking out of your shell - should not be part of some group exercise. The article implies that a group of people were let loose with instructions to bother people:

> Once we got downtown and the exercise officially began, I achieved slightly above my own expectations, which were fairly low. I approached maybe 12-15 people total, in an hour and a half. (Some of the others reported approaching two or three times that number.)

:/

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#89

Post by mettamage »

throwamon wrote: post #44
mettamage wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It'd be interesting to see how this would work out today. I've approached 1000s of people about ten years ago. Back in 2012, it wasn't an issue. The worst rejections I've faced were: * a woman shouting very loudly to go the f- away. I immediately backed away put my hands up and replied "ok". Her loud voice grew softer as our distance grew. This was at a train station. * I was pushed down from a stairs. I should've…

Have you ever avoided situations due to social anxiety? Ever had trouble keeping a conversation going? How many times have you been explicitly called attractive/unattractive by someone you felt attracted to? Was your childhood good (caring parents, enough food, no bullying)? Genuine questions.

1. Yep, all the time

2. Yep, all the time

3. Attractive/unattractive: unattractive from every girl I liked throughout high school, except at the end. After that many times when I approached people. When I got a bit better at expressing myself I got to hear a couple of times I was attractive.

4. Childhood was pretty messed up. I don't want to get into it. Let's say that my parents cared and I had enough food. Let's also say that I've learned too much about drugs, sexual abuse, violence and death before I was 10. Fortunately, I saw it happening around me not to me (except for bullying by some kids at my "ghetto school", but I can't blame those kids, they had it much rougher than me as they did experience some of those things directly to them). Because of this I have a unique insight into the lowest parts of Dutch society. I fought as a kid but wasn't any good at it, it was barely enough for self-defense and for kids to know I wasn't the easiest target. When I got to middle school / high school I was transferred to one of the poshest schools ever (still a public school though, the barrier to entry was having a high score to be let in as it was pre-university only, most schools offer all pre-whatever levels). I was dumbfounded by how little violence there was. In retrospect, many kids there were upperclass, I had no clue until I hit my late twenties and met upperclass people and noticed "they feel as my high school".

The biggest skill I've learned with approaching people is to not be phased by rejections. I've had amazing peaks in social suaveness from time to time but in most cases it was below mediocre.

I'd like to argue that I came a long way. But going through all this rejection and having a nice life now in the romantic / social deparment is totally worth it. It's worth all the rejection. Hell, it's even worth the uncertainty of understanding if it will ever work out. It took 3 years before I saw any results (16 to 19). I had no choice, it was either going through hell or die alone. I decided that going through hell was less painful. In retrospect, I didn't go through hell, there was some heavy turbulence but I made it seem a lot scarier than it was. And I've noticed that other people make this seem a lot scarier than it is (just read the comment section of this thread).

Re: Rejection Therapy (2011)

#90

Post by mettamage »

klabb3 wrote: post #36

Slightly OT: It seems to me that a large part of our social fabric is based on chance encounters. Talking to strangers in passing, as you go about your day to day business. With increasing digitalization, especially in the first world, we're quickly losing these opportunities. There is often no longer any need to talk to anyone when buying groceries, running errands, asking for directions, etc. All of these are poten…

I've sometimes tried to meet people on Hacker News. But I do think it's harder, because you can't actually be with them at the same place. The conversations I've had were always nice, but apparently in order for friendship to become a thing, something more needs to happen.

If anyone lives in Amsterdam and wants to meet a fellow HN'er, have a cup of coffee/tea, feel free to email me.

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