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No is a complete sentence

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Re: No is a complete sentence

#61

Post by watwut »

anbende wrote: post #24
sarchertech wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t simply say no either, but to be fair their advice was to start with no. Then wait for their reply to determine whether you need to provide a detailed explanation or not. Essentially use their reply to smoke out the people who are going to get angry even if do you give an explanation, so you don’t waste time. I don’t know if the overlap between those 2 groups (people who get mad at “No” with no explanation,…

I think the prior comment is pretty spot on. It's hard for me to think of anyone I might ask for something and not feel annoyed or even disrespected if I was given absolutely no explanation. Even if I had reached out to someone I don't know, basic politeness would dictate some sort of reason even if it's a "sorry I don't have time for that right now" or even "I'm just not interested in participating". If I actually k…

I used to explain everything, but then people pressured me a lot on most of my "no". It was interpreted as start of negotiation or maybe I was then seen as potential pushover, I don't know.

I learned to say no with no explanation and look a bit sad while doing it. Pressure stopped, people accept my no as valid and seem to treat me with more respect.

So, plain no is not attack on you. It is experience that explanation makes one vulnerable to uncomfortable pressure.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#62

Post by watwut »

awillen wrote: post #22
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #5

From an organizational perspective, this is horrible advice: > Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense. The "It requires no explanation or defense" part is just plain wrong . If someone asks you to do something in an organization, it's fine to say "No", but an explanation is nearly always expected. And this explanation is critical, because often time the answer is s…

When I read the title, I imagined this would be about social and romantic situations. In personal contexts, of course you have the right to say no with no further explanation. In professional contexts... you're being paid to be to serve the business. If someone who's part of that business asks you something, you don't get to just say no unless you're the CEO. You can say no and explain that you're not the right perso…

> If someone who's part of that business asks you something, you don't get to just say no unless you're the CEO.

Of course you get to say no. You are not paid to "serve the business" as if business owned you. You are paid for specific role, specific amount of time, specific achievements. And that pretty often includes saying no to other people in same organization.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#63

Post by parineum »

kingforaday wrote: post #10
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #5

From an organizational perspective, this is horrible advice: > Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense. The "It requires no explanation or defense" part is just plain wrong . If someone asks you to do something in an organization, it's fine to say "No", but an explanation is nearly always expected. And this explanation is critical, because often time the answer is s…

Great advice from Herman Melville’s “Bartleby, the Scrivener”: simply saying “I would prefer not to…” has worked so many times for me.

This is usually the way I respond to friends who know they can follow that up with "please!" and I'll do it. It's kind of a "how important is this to you?" test.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#64

Post by sdoering »

gtowey wrote: post #32
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I read the title, I imagined this would be about social and romantic situations. In personal contexts, of course you have the right to say no with no further explanation. Maybe you need to rethink that. Do your friends really warrant less respect than colleagues?

> Maybe you need to rethink that. Do your friends really warrant less respect than colleagues Are your friends paying you to complete whatever tasks they ask of you? Really what it means is this: A friend may ask something of you and you decline with a stated reason. Then they start finding ways to tell you your reason is invalid and then therefore you shouldn't refuse. This is the part that's disrespectful. Sometime…

> Then they start finding ways to tell you your reason is invalid

The moment I cut them out of my life. Whoever feels entitled to denigrating the reasons I state for not doing something (in the context of friendship) and so blatantly disrespects me by showing that they feel their needs trump mine is nothing I need in my life.

I cut clients loose that disrespect me in a professional manner, why should I deal with such people privately.

> With people who don't respect this boundary, giving a reason is never good enough

Agreed. But to me it is a great filter as described above. It works to my advantage in triggering people I don't want to have in my life to reveal themselves.

A positive example: My SO and me are providing a foster home to stray cats rescued in neutering campaigns (cats that were to ill/young/hurt to be returned to the spot they were captured at for neutering). It happenes that we regularly receive request if we could take in a cat or more. As we are doing this for different groups they never know if we have capacity left. So we sometimes have to say no. One group tried to argue that one more cat would not burden us much more. They really did not respect our no. Since then we don't work with this group anymore and concentrate one the two animal welfare groups that actually respect the people in the back (the foster homes and others).

Re: No is a complete sentence

#65

Post by sdoering »

Jensson wrote: post #53
beachy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal contexts are different. Quite acceptable to say just "No" to: - do you want me to get you a drink? - may I kiss you? - I hear they're doing shrooms next door, shall we join them?

In what way can't you just say a plain "no" to: - do you want to take my shift? - Do you know how this api works? - Do you want to attend the meeting this afternoon? I don't see how personal vs professional changes anything.

In professional settings you will often encounter requests like:

- (Can you) Do this report by tomorrow? - I had a report due yesterday, but I don't understand how to login to XYZ to get the data. Can you show me right now?

The first one is (depending on who asks) potentially difficult to answer with a short 'No'.

The second one may be answerable with 'No' but people like these will spread the word that you are difficult to work with and unfriendly. They will more often than not taint your reputation and create problems in your compensation talks (as being likeable and easy to work with is often a factor in these things).

Re: No is a complete sentence

#66

Post by lwhi »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #5

From an organizational perspective, this is horrible advice: > Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense. The "It requires no explanation or defense" part is just plain wrong . If someone asks you to do something in an organization, it's fine to say "No", but an explanation is nearly always expected. And this explanation is critical, because often time the answer is s…

I agree .. it's absolutely ridiculous advice.

Business, and life is general, depend on relationships. Relationships depend on understanding.

Just saying 'no', is primarily going to piss people off.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#67

Post by fladrif »

watwut wrote: post #59
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #5

From an organizational perspective, this is horrible advice: > Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense. The "It requires no explanation or defense" part is just plain wrong . If someone asks you to do something in an organization, it's fine to say "No", but an explanation is nearly always expected. And this explanation is critical, because often time the answer is s…

Not entirely. The explanation is very very often taken as start of negotiation and an invitation to pressure/question you. Saying that as someone who was taught to explain everything as kid and found out in real life that I have to unlearn that. Say no, maybe bonus "cant" but don't say reasons unless you really have to.

This sounds like the people you work with have boundary issues, this may warrant being addressed first.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#68

Post by froh »

inopinatus wrote: post #48
inopinatus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterexample: "What's your favourite kind of theatre?" "No." I'd need more explanation if they said Yes¹.

[1] counter-counter-example: "which one is your favourite unix command?" "no, yes".

Indeed an example which needs more explanation.

I don't get what you mean

https://linux.die.net/man/1/no

Re: No is a complete sentence

#69

Post by ahartmetz »

watwut wrote: post #62
awillen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read the title, I imagined this would be about social and romantic situations. In personal contexts, of course you have the right to say no with no further explanation. In professional contexts... you're being paid to be to serve the business. If someone who's part of that business asks you something, you don't get to just say no unless you're the CEO. You can say no and explain that you're not the right perso…

> If someone who's part of that business asks you something, you don't get to just say no unless you're the CEO. Of course you get to say no. You are not paid to "serve the business" as if business owned you. You are paid for specific role, specific amount of time, specific achievements. And that pretty often includes saying no to other people in same organization.

This is a typical big company attitude that can make work miserable. It helps a lot if everybody tries to keep track of the overall situation and tries to improve it. That doesn't mean that you're a slave, it just means that you do good work.

Obviously don't burn yourself out trying to improve something that the organization resists to improve (unless that is your role).

Edit: Parent is talking more about requests of others, I'm more talking about own initiative. That is an important difference. Getting "sidetracked" is much less frustrating if that is what you want to do.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#70

Post by toomanybeersies »

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #57

Oh god not this again. I'm not sure if this is just ripped off or if this is another person encouraging others to commit career and / or social suicide. To be blunt if you do this to me in the workplace and you are my direct report you will get a verbal warning. If you do it repeatedly you will get fired. If you are a colleague and you do this I will report you, and will never help you. If you do this to me and I kno…

Reporting your colleagues for being curt is also career suicide.
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