I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears • Hacker News Board

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#611

Post by yalogin » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:38 AM UTC

Is there any research into why college fee is going up? I read somewhere that the fee rose 5x compared to inflation over the last 50 yrs. Do colleges amass wealth and stash them for a rainy day? I am not talking about for profit colleges many of which feel more like scams to me.

I am trying to think what could have added to costs. The cost of research probably increased as the low hanging fruit are done and research in general is more involved now. May be the salaries grew in-line with the rest of the country.

Did the overall government funding fall over the decades?

Overall, I agree with Sam here, any peripheral gestures without addressing the root cause is pointless. But the current US political system has no aptitude to solve problems. In fact they have realized they want to ensure the other party fails so they can point and they in elections. Politics has become a perverse selfish game rather than about governance and people. The best they can do is enable companies to offer more loans and more ways to repay and that’s it.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#612

Post by jmeister » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:39 AM UTC

WoodenChair wrote: post #605

Sam Altman makes a lot of grandiose predictions and statements. For example, in 2019 he said “Human radiologists are already much worse than computer radiologists. If I had to pick a human or an AI to read my scan, I’d pick the AI.” [0] However, most people with domain knowledge in this space still would not want their scan not to be read by a human. The AI radiology apps are generally narrowly focused and useful for…

Ok?

1. That’s his job as an investor. Getting one big outlier prediction right makes up for a hundred wrong ones.

2. These predictions tend to provoke interesting debates(that’s probably Sama’s intent here).

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#613

Post by WoodenChair » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

jmeister wrote: post #612

WoodenChair wrote: post #605

Sam Altman makes a lot of grandiose predictions and statements. For example, in 2019 he said “Human radiologists are already much worse than computer radiologists. If I had to pick a human or an AI to read my scan, I’d pick the AI.” [0] However, most people with domain knowledge in this space still would not want their scan not to be read by a human. The AI radiology apps are generally narrowly focused and useful for…

Ok? 1. That’s his job as an investor. Getting one big outlier prediction right makes up for a hundred wrong ones. 2. These predictions tend to provoke interesting debates(that’s probably Sama’s intent here).

> Ok? That’s his job as an investor. Getting one big outlier prediction right makes up for a hundred wrong ones.

But he's not acting as an investor here. He's acting as an influencer on Twitter. And when a public figure consistently makes poor predictions, I think they should be called out for it.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#614

Post by tptacek » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:45 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #273

rayiner wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. Only 2% of Bangladeshis go to college. Are the rest not adults? Indeed, I’d say the opposite is true. Apart from job training, the main function of college in America seems to be extending adolescence and deferring dealing with the real world. 18 year olds in Bangladesh are a lot more “adult” than many college-educated 30-some…

I'm sure you have some knowledge that I could learn from, but it requires both of us and most of that is inflammatory and hyperbole. Let's both try curiosity and bringing valuable knowledge to the table? > 18 year olds in Bangladesh are a lot more “adult” Imagine an 18 year old in the US. They could go to college and learn more about the world, themselves, etc., or get a menial job, an apartment, and become more adul…

I went to work when I was 18. I don't think I've spent my career doing menial work.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#615

Post by esperent » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:45 AM UTC

CityOfThrowaway wrote: post #571

scaramanga wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that higher education is (yet another) public good that fails when turned in to a for-profit enterprise?

The exact opposite actually. It's a good for-profit enterprise that fails when it's narrative twists it into a public good. The problem isn't that university doesn't work. The problem is that the federal government has propped it up with so much poorly underwritten debt that the prices have ballooned beyond value delivered. That would be fine if the audience taking the debt was rational. But the discourse around univ…

There's plenty of examples of universities being run as not-for-profit and doing just fine. Pretty much all of Europe since the concept of a University has existed, for example.

Sure, you can nitpick problems with European universities and they are not perfect. But nobody is going into debt slavery in Europe from getting a degree and nobody is talking about the collapse of European universities.

So maybe the problem lies somewhere else? Something to do with the unchecked capitalism of the American system, for example?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#616

Post by rdevsrex » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:47 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #499

jerojero wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think access to education is a human right? I find your last paragraph a bit troubling, I agree that becoming a part of the elite does not really have a significance with regards to your own worth. But the USA is not a country that revolves around the middle class, its a country that revolves around the elites. In America not being part of the elite is a failure because the political and economical system is m…

European elite go to American schools. Just like the elite from all around the world. The premise is faulty from the onset. Most ‘top’ European schools are mediocre outside of liberal arts degrees.

So ETH Zurich, L'École polytechnique, etc are not elite? What are talking about?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#617

Post by smt88 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:48 AM UTC

WoodenChair wrote: post #605

Sam Altman makes a lot of grandiose predictions and statements. For example, in 2019 he said “Human radiologists are already much worse than computer radiologists. If I had to pick a human or an AI to read my scan, I’d pick the AI.” [0] However, most people with domain knowledge in this space still would not want their scan not to be read by a human. The AI radiology apps are generally narrowly focused and useful for…

To add to this, I would suggest that if Altman were able to predict the future, he wouldn't be betting so hard on the idiotic/alarming WorldCoin boondoggle, nor would his previous startup have failed.

The only thing he seems to have succeeded at is convincing Paul Graham he should lead YC.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#618

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:50 AM UTC

iamleppert wrote: post #515

wolverine876 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you have some knowledge that I could learn from, but it requires both of us and most of that is inflammatory and hyperbole. Let's both try curiosity and bringing valuable knowledge to the table? > 18 year olds in Bangladesh are a lot more “adult” Imagine an 18 year old in the US. They could go to college and learn more about the world, themselves, etc., or get a menial job, an apartment, and become more adul…

I never went to college, instead I got a job and worked like you say at age 18. I then worked my way into software engineering. Compared to my siblings (and virtually everyone else in my family, who took more traditional routes), I’m far more independent and have a stable career with no college debt. I’ve heard of others talk up the college experience, but I fail to see what’s so special about it. What exactly did I…

I don't know you at all, so I have nothing to say about you, of course. Nothing personal.

Regarding the assertions: Of course, one anecdoctal experience says nothing about a population, and in the population, career and other outcomes are far better for college graduates.

We are all by not knowing what we missed and, as you say about others, to rationalize our choices. Framing the question - always the most powerful mode of argument - by saying someone meets the standard (i.e., you are happy in your life), so why do something else, makes any possible alternative useless. What good is a winning lottery ticket either? But the question is, what are the different sets of outcomes from each alternative choice? Each alternative, such as college, makes us better off in some ways, worse off in others - and that includes impacting things that the other alternatives don't touch.

You're defining the question as if college benefits are social life and speed of acquiring adult life skills and responsibilities. If those are someone's aims, I'd agree - don't go! College is about critical thinking skills, knowledge, and learning skills, which last a lifetime. Are your thinking skills so good that they can't be improved? Do you have nothing to learn? Not me. How do improve those things? Imagine studying with an expert who not only guides you in what to study, but explains the works based many other works, context, etc.; answers your questions regularly, person-to-person, in their office and via computer; pushes you to see dimensions and angles that you didn't know about, and to do it at a high level; and reviews your understanding and gives you feedback. And then it would be great to do that with others studying the same thing. And if the study needs it, if they provided other resources: A huge library of other works and every reseach paper ever written (along with experts in each field that help you discover excellent, relevant materials); labs with specialized equipment; etc. etc.

If college didn't exist for learning, it would be too good to be invented.

Also, don't you want to learn about yourself, the world, etc.? What you read on the Internet is so far removed from the quality of knowledge, it's laughable, and it's tragic.

> I know some that are terrified of “growing up”

> sheltered and honestly, kind of bizarre world of academia

These are well-worn stereotypes. People inside and outside school have trouble growing up; handling a college workload is no joke - much harder than early jobs, which often are 40 hours and not challenging (many service jobs). And academia is no more bizarre than other industries. You should see what goes on in SV or on Wall Street if you want bizarre.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#619

Post by sarchertech » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:51 AM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #585

sarchertech wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “college experience” of living in a dorm for 4 years is probably overrated, but if you can afford it, there’s definitely a benefit to spending 4 years on directed learning. Both in subjects you’re interested and in being forced to learn subjects you would never touch on your own. I went back to school after a decade of web development, and learned a ton. I think I’m a much better developer than I would have been…

I graduated from college the first time; did both community college and university as a transfer. Still got the 'freshman experience' my first semester at uni, then lived on campus, except for my final semester where I commuted. Yes, having dedicated time to focus on learning was great. But I was effective at that because I'd already learned to, well, learn, on my own, by homeschooling the latter half of high school…

> College isn't for suckers, but the scholastic benefits of it can be gotten through other means

Of course it’s possible, but the number of people who have the discipline/inclination to get through a degree’s worth (or even a significant fraction of a degree’s worth) of education on their own is very small. Small enough that if the reason you’re skipping college is because you think you can/will learn everything they can teach you on your own, you’re most likely kidding yourself.

With self directed learning it’s also shockingly easy to develop huge blind spots that you have no idea you have.

> and should probably be done because a job you're interested in requires it

I’ve personally benefited a good deal from taking the year of physics I was forced to take, despite no job having ever required it.

The same goes for all the papers I had to write in non CS classes.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#620

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:56 AM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #585

sarchertech wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “college experience” of living in a dorm for 4 years is probably overrated, but if you can afford it, there’s definitely a benefit to spending 4 years on directed learning. Both in subjects you’re interested and in being forced to learn subjects you would never touch on your own. I went back to school after a decade of web development, and learned a ton. I think I’m a much better developer than I would have been…

I graduated from college the first time; did both community college and university as a transfer. Still got the 'freshman experience' my first semester at uni, then lived on campus, except for my final semester where I commuted. Yes, having dedicated time to focus on learning was great. But I was effective at that because I'd already learned to, well, learn, on my own, by homeschooling the latter half of high school…

> the scholastic benefits of it can be gotten through other means

Where else will you get the direct access to expertise in all those fields, guiding you in what works/experiments/skills/etc to read/learn/acquire, answering questions personally, the massive labs and libraries, the students to study with.

As someone who has tried to study on my own at a serious level, I would say the opposite: Studying on my own is nothing like it. I am very jealous of those in college. I don't know which books and papers to read, how to contextualize them, what they have and lack; I have nobody to ask (Reddit and Stack Exchange being very poor substitutes); I lack access to resources that are far too expensive, JSTOR being a simple example, making much study very time-consuming or impossible. I regularly run into things, years later, that would have been introduced in the first day of class by an expert - I have an unknown but large quantity of blind spots.