I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears • Hacker News Board

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#451

Post by throwawaycities » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:14 AM UTC

I think the writing on the wall is clear regarding student loans.

The entire notion of taxpayer funded student loans is a scam on both taxpayers and students. It’s a system that allows the colleges/universities to charge any tuition they want and guarantees there will be an artificial demand.

For about a decade at least 1M student loan holders default per year. Long before the defaults reached that high, everyone involved knew that student loans were far outpacing the economic value, and yet not a single college or university stepped up in goodfaith to blow the whistle, they continued to suckle at the tit to the detriment of their own students.

Education is supposed to benefit students and the nation as a whole but the ridiculousness of loans has ensured it ruins lives and at >$1.5T in taxpayer funded debt that continues to grow exponentially it is a detriment to the country.

Collapse of student loans will of course have an impact of the college/university landscape, but the industry as a whole will not collapse, rather tuition will “collapse”, or come down, to what students can actually afford out of pocket without going into debt. And if the universities/colleges somehow can’t survive on existing taxpayers subsidies from the Dept. of Educations $68B annual budget plus out of pocket tuition rates, then welcome to the real world your university/college is a failed business.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#452

Post by ModernMech » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:15 AM UTC

readingnews wrote: post #368

imgabe wrote: post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

I have worked at three universities. This is pretty insanely accurate. You left out one item though. The main role US institutions are trying to fill right now is: hire new faculty, have faculty pull in 5+ Million dollar grants in order to get tenure. After tenure, pull in multi-million dollar grants each year. Teaching? Never heard of it. OH! That thing the actual customers are paying us for... yes, have graduate st…

> Teaching? Never heard of it.

This view is starting to become outdated. Plenty of schools now have a role known as "Teaching Professor" that focuses on teaching, with no research expectation. They have all the same qualifications as any faculty hired for the role, like a Ph.D. in the field. At UPenn at least they can even get tenure.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#453

Post by Ternari » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:16 AM UTC

pengaru wrote: post #338

synergy20 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

college is delaying young people to become mature, we're producing giant babies these days, thanks to endless parenting, online gaming, social screen time, now probably even metaverse, you name it. on the STEM subject, teens good at math are never teacher's favorites, instead they're called nerds and some are even isolated from the rest, it's quite the opposite in Asia, or even in Europe. That's the root cause we nee…

> college is delaying young people to become mature, we're producing giant babies these days, thanks to endless parenting, online gaming, social screen time, now probably even metaverse, you name it. It persists into the professional space, just look at how infantilizing Silicon Valley became, trying to turn the workplace into a playpen complete with propeller head hats.

My propeller hat is a dignified part of my professional attire, thank you very much.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#454

Post by jerojero » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:17 AM UTC

ufmace wrote: post #407

imgabe wrote: post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

FWIW, I think that this factor: > If the upper class want someplace to send their kids to read poetry and binge drink for 4 years Is the heart of the problem. For a long time, this was basically the core function of universities - to make people part of the elite. We told ourselves that it was actually about the things being taught rather than social connections. Maybe to a certain extent it even was. But then, opera…

Do you think access to education is a human right?

I find your last paragraph a bit troubling, I agree that becoming a part of the elite does not really have a significance with regards to your own worth. But the USA is not a country that revolves around the middle class, its a country that revolves around the elites. In America not being part of the elite is a failure because the political and economical system is made to benefit, empower and sustain elites. Becoming part of the elite is a very good way of sustaining your family and the future family of your family for generations to come. Look at the downward versus upward mobility! To pretend like there is a social class that just isn't for everyone is extremely offensive; everyone should have the same chance. Not everyone can be the best, but everyone who wants to should have a fair shot at it and universities and education as a whole is the best way we have to pave the way.

In Europe, in most countries, universities are accessible to all and they do have some excellent institutions. But not only that, children of all social classes go to the same schools (yes you do have mega elites but I'm talking here about the vast majority of the population) on the other hand compare that to america where children go to school that depends on their location and where you have an incredible disparity between where the poor and where the rich live. How could you say "not everyone can be part of the elite" when being part of the elite is already largely determined on the area you were born in!

I think the US education system needs a complete reform and so much has to change, but really, if youre a politician and you are part of the elite what incentive do you have to make things harder for you and your class? Your kid is going to a top high school then its going to go to a top university. And their kids will do the same if you keep things the way they are.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#455

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:18 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #311

andrewjl wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But AFAIK the main market distortion in the farming industry is the opposite: subsidies that make farming more attractive than it would be, which would tend to increase farm workers' equilibrium wages. That might be true for markets in the abstract but the market for farm labor is distorted in several ways. One is due to historical reasons farm labor is treated differently from other labor categories and the end re…

These are interesting points. Regarding farm labor having fewer protections. In general, labour protections can be distortion-creating (e.g. a minimum wage) or distortion-busting (e.g. rules that ensure people are paid on time). Regarding the captive labor force: this might be bad for non citizens (and humanity overall), but it seems like it's good for US citizens, who benefit from increased (unlimited?) supply of fa…

[deleted]

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#456

Post by crackercrews » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:18 AM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #356

wolverine876 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning Could you provide an example of that claim? Usually the SAT is considered discriminatory because the way the testing is done favors wealthy, well-educated people, and gives negative results for equally talented people who lack those advantages. Colleges have found that the SAT is excluding a large part of the talent pool.…

Rather than saying "the SAT is discriminatory," maybe ask which questions on the SAT's are discriminatory, and why? And how could you fix them? This will be more revealing of what the problem might be. I believe a lot of problems that the SAT's used to have were fixed over the years? It's somewhat of a moving target. And if you can't make any standardized test that's fair, why is that?

A prominent researcher noted that the following question was tested by the ETS but never made it onto the SAT:

The actor's bearing on stage seemed ______; her movements were natural and her technique _____

A. unremitting...blasé B. fluid...tentative C. unstudied...contrived D. eclectic...uniform E. grandiose...controlled

Apparently 8% more black students answered this question correctly than white students, and it was never moved from a potential question into the real test. The allegation is that the racial outcome of the question is the cause of its never making it onto the SAT.

I think it never made it because the question is bad. None of the answers makes much sense (the correct answer is apparently C).

1: http://www.jayrosner.com/publication-onwhitepreferences.html

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#457

Post by bachmeier » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:18 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #435

anonuser123456 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a shame, because sometimes graduate students are better teachers than research faculty.

You can also go to a school where professors are employed for their ability to teach. Choosing to go to a research institution seems like such an obviously poor choice it’s strange people get suckered into it. But it’s clear education is a low priority for both students and collages.

Not really. Small liberal arts colleges offer the chance to be friends with your professors and small classes. Research universities can offer classes that just aren't going to happen at a SLAC. For example, majors in our department have the option to take graduate courses before they graduate.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#458

Post by wpietri » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:19 AM UTC

abecedarius wrote: post #134

wpietri wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A degree doesn't cost the company. Degrees cost companies through increased wages. Student loans get paid somehow, after all. > This was gratuitous. I didn't even see any politics in the thread. You not seeing things is not the same as things not existing. I do see it, and wanted to focus this bit of discussion on the question of degree value, not the assorted other stuff there.

> Degrees cost companies through increased wages. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)#Job-mar... for the model behind my comment. You’re a hiring manager choosing between Alice and Bob. Alice has a degree, Bob doesn’t; you estimate they’ll be equally productive, and it’s common knowledge that your competitors will judge them the same. Do you offer Bob less, since he doesn’t have student loans to…

Quite a lot of people will indeed pay Alice more, especially if her degree is from a brand-name school. You can look up the stats yourself, but they're striking.

I personally build my hiring processes to be relatively blind to elite status signals. But interviewees tell me that's pretty unusual.

> You can mention having further disagreements without making it a gratuitous diss.

I believe it was both accurate and necessary to divert the replies away from the politics. And given that you can't even find the politics, I don't understand why you consider it necessary to appoint yourself my editor.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#459

Post by User23 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:19 AM UTC

phdelightful wrote: post #440

User23 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have a physicist who's at the leading edge of research in their field, you want them doing that research, not teaching 18 year old's Newton's laws of motion. Wrong.

Since you don’t offer much to work with, I assume you mean: “I disgree. People at the cutting edge should be educating others both to help them make their ideas accessible and connect them with the future of their discipline.” I encourage you to add more than a single word to the conversation.

Why? You just showed how much that single word conveyed. For which I thank you. Being overly specific is rarely productive.

I was writing for people such as you. As for the rest? Well anyone who can’t make such a trivial inference obviously has nothing interesting to say about didactic methods.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#460

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 2:19 AM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #166

titzer wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If farm workers' job gets sufficiently bad from a value proposition perspective, then people will leave the occupation They are. Farmer suicides over the past 10 years have skyrocketed. Farmers are committing suicide at twice the rate of combat veterans. [1] I'm afraid I can't take your comment seriously as a dispassionate economic analysis since it lacks even basic empathy for people caught in this ongoing trainwr…

People committing suicide rather than quitting and doing something else (declaring bankruptcy if necessary) means it's not just a supply and demand thing. It's also important to distinguish between farm workers (hired hands) and the business owners.

At least in my limited knowledge, it's the small time farmers that commit suicide (so owner that works), and generally in the older population. What else are you going to do if you've been doing that your whole life, you're 50, no college (or it was for agriculture)? You likely can't stay where you are because many of the areas are depressed and they'll take your land if you can't pay the taxes, are foreclosed, etc. Just making it to the next year and all the hard choices become a heavy burden - one that you can struggle with for years and only make it that long because you've motivated yourself that it's the only way and only goal. So it's not just a job, but their entire way of life and identity that are lost.